AMPONTAN

Japan from the inside out

Linguistically learned but culturally clueless

Posted by ampontan on Thursday, October 18, 2007

I DROVE A TAXICAB to support myself when I studied Japanese at university. One day, one of my passengers, a woman in her 20s, asked me why I was hacking a cab. When she found out I was a student of Japanese, she asked another question: “Oh, are you studying the culture, too?”

CabbiesI didn’t know what to say at first. This was a college town, so dealing with the affected attitudes of my fares was an occupational hazard, but she didn’t seem to be that kind of person. It was more likely that she had never spent a lot of time studying a foreign language. People who do study a foreign language with the objective of fluency quickly discover it’s impossible to learn another tongue without learning a lot about that country’s culture. But instead of giving her that kind of answer, I just let it go and said, yes, I was studying the culture too.

After reading this article in the Japan Times, however, I realized it was possible for apparently intelligent people to become fluent in a foreign language without understanding much about that country’s culture. Roger Pulvers writes about the belief among some Japanese that their language is the most difficult in the world. He relates a conversation with a Tokyo cab driver in the mid-80s about this subject.

“Oh. Japanese is the most difficult language to speak in the world, you know. Isn’t it?”

Well, for the 15-minute ride home I strove to persuade my driver that this, in fact, did not seem to be the case. I pointed out the fiendish difficulties of the languages that I had studied in my life, Russian and, particularly, Polish being much more complicated in grammar and pronunciation, at least for a native speaker of English, than Japanese. I finished my discourse as we rounded the corner by my house.

“I mean, Polish, for instance, has elaborate case endings for adjectives, and even has a special one for the nominative plural of male animate nouns!”

Having listened attentively to my passionate, if pedantic, foray into the esoterica of comparative linguistics, the driver stopped the cab by my front gate, turned his head around to me and smiled broadly.

“Well, anyway,” he said, “Japanese is still the most difficult language in the world!”

. . .Why did my taxi driver at Seijo Gakuenmae persist in perpetrating the myth of difficulty?

Here was my first thought after reading this passage: This guy is writing fiction. As a translator, I know more than a few foreigners fluent in Japanese, but I’m not sure any of them can spout such phrases as the Japanese equivalent of “the nominative plural of male animate nouns” off the top of their head. No doubt there are a few somewhere who can, and perhaps Pulvers is deeply immersed in linguistics studies from a Japanese perspective, but I have my reservations. People who study foreign languages also wind up learning a fair amount of grammatical terms, but most don’t bother with the specialized vocabulary for grammatical forms that don’t exist in the language they’re studying.

Here was my second thought: What is this man trying to prove? It’s not unusual in the United States to run into cab drivers with a master’s degree and an ambivalent attitude toward the workaday world, but I’ve yet to run into any in Japan. (Guys like that in Japan tend to open up coffee shops or bars, play jazz on the shop’s sound system, and refer to famous musicians by their first name only.) Does he really think he’s going to have a meaningful conversation about comparative linguistics with a cab driver? Does he think he’s going to change the driver’s mind? Is he one of those academics who just isn’t aware of what people usually talk about when they’re passing time and exchanging pleasantries?

Here was my third thought: Pulvers may have a superb command of the Japanese language, but he still doesn’t understand the basics of Japanese culture. That’s because the driver wasn’t interested in talking about the Japanese language. He was just trying to strike up a casual conversation with a foreigner. In the mid-80s, even in Tokyo, his foreign customer was probably the highlight of his day.

Foreigners new to Japan often complain about how Japanese like to start conversations by bringing up what they consider to be trivial subjects, such as the foreigner’s Japanese ability, dexterity with chopsticks, or the weather. The tragedy is that they’re being given a basic lesson in one of the primary differences of Japanese culture and they fail to recognize it.

Really? You speak Polish too? How fascinating!

Yes, starting off with a comment about the weather is a cliché in the West for a trivial conversation. In Japan, however, that’s considered an excellent way for two strangers to break the ice. Listen to the start of a radio or TV broadcast, and one of the first things an announcer will talk about is that day’s weather, even if he knows most of his listeners are several hundred kilometers away. I have even translated training manuals for sales personnel that recommend the salesperson create a friendly relationship with the prospective customer by talking about the weather.

It’s puzzling: one reason for visiting a foreign country is to find out how those people live. Once there, the best way to find out is to pay attention to what happens every day between people at the most basic levels of society.

But some folks seem not to have noticed that one of the key points in Japanese social interaction, whether it’s in a classroom or a bar, is the effort put into getting everyone on the same page by seeking the least common denominator. Talking about the weather or chopsticks may be trivial, but that’s the easiest way to create and maintain a pleasant relationship for the next ten minutes (or the next ten years) without ruffling any feathers. Getting involved in a discussion about politics or any other subject that generates strong opinions could easily become unpleasant for both parties and destroy the potential for a harmonious encounter.

When people in the West say that one of the basic differences of Japanese society is the emphasis on cultural harmony, they mean it! So why not believe it?

This is such a basic component of Japanese behavior that the failure to recognize it suggests to me that some people are just too self-absorbed to learn about their surroundings. I’d be willing to bet the cab driver couldn’t have given a flying fig about the difficulty of the Japanese language. He was more likely impressed with his passenger’s speaking ability and figured the best way to have a pleasant 15-minute chat was by complimenting the guy indirectly on his language ability. But no—Pulvers couldn’t just casually agree and direct the conversation elsewhere. He had to give the cab driver a lecture about Polish grammar.

Maybe some people do need to take a course in culture when they’re studying a language.

Of course, there’s one other possibility. After listening to some pretentious foreigner butcher his language with an incomprehensible explanation of the nominative plural of male animate nouns in a language he’ll never speak in a country he’ll never visit, the driver decided he was justified in believing that Japanese was the most difficult language in the world after all.

45 Responses to “Linguistically learned but culturally clueless”

  1. Overthinker said

    I thought this seemed familair, and it turns out the article is two years old, and I’m sure someone else has tackled it, but can’t remember who or where. Anyway, he says: “Is it just a benign ignorance of the workings of language, or is there something else at work here?
    Is his quaint obstinacy an indication of a wished-for ethnic “exclusivity”?”

    How about Answer B? He almost gets it before he segues into a Nihonjinron-esque rant. Perhaps Japanese say that sort of thing after having struggled with English so much in school and finding the languages so very different. Or from hearing about those Jesuit priests back in the 1500s who termed it “the Devil’s tongue” for its difficulty. I believe the US State Department also puts the language in its Most Difficult class, though this guy is only talking (ha) about the spoken language.

    (My answer to this sort of thing depends on how annoyed I am to find yet another way to say “I” that depends on your relative rank, age, time of year, and degree of facial hair, in which case I generally say “damn right” and leave it at that, or I might say something like “Well, 128 million people seem to manage it just fine” if I am feeling facetious. Or if I want to suru a bit of goma, something like “It’s not been easy.”)

    Oh, but I do agree with this: “…an acceptable pause in Japanese, often giving the impression of profundity” – been most useful at times, when I forget what I am saying (ie the right way to end it) halfway through a long and involved sentence….

    And regarding your own experience, I can see where she was coming from. Obviously there is a strong cultural component in learning a language (hopefully), but she was probably referring to something more proactive – maybe the Tea Ceremony or Calligraphy or something, Culture with a capital C.

  2. bingobangoboy said

    I’m more surprised that Pulvers has apparently learned at least three other languages without previously noticing that the belief that one’s native language is uniquely difficult, is just about universal.

  3. Aceface said

    So what exactly Pulvers wants to say here?Is he meant to say that Japanese must keep it’s national cultural awarness at maximum level all the time,as the level that even a cab driver can outmaneuver a cosmopolitan academic in casual conversation?What comes to me as the picture of such ideal Japan is sort of like Multi cultural PC North Korea.

    Something that irks me about all these gaijin-speak on Japan is these “PCer-than-thou”talk that relentlessly continues in all aspects of Japanese lives discounting social/political/historical contexts.Little wonder why they are not considered as one’s fellow but a travelling commissar of a sort.

  4. Aceface said

    Wonder what Professor Pulvers would say after reading this.

    From NBR U.S-Japan discussion forum:

    ” First, Greg insists that Japanese institutes often deny a foreigner tenure/full status because the latter lacks the Japanese for serious participation in admin. afffairs. ”

    “What a text-book case (pardon the pun) of telling someone to jump ten feet so as to pass a fitness test — i.e. impossible standards. This means studying the language no later than junior or senior high school. Japanese doing committee work abroad started English then and were often exposed to it earilier, too. Even then, many have their memo’s “edited” (i.e. rewritten? by native speaking grad students or colleagues if they are long or complex. ”

    “Also, the JET Program was touted as a techer exchange, with Japanese heading out to instruct. But this did not transpire. Therefore, most of us learn in Japan. To exacerbate it, colleges don’t often provide a stipend or research assistance in getting quality instruction, nor do they lessen the work load as we learn. It is well neigh impossible for middle aged people to raise families, teach full time, publish/conference and learn Nihongo until we can write it fluently, especially if we already maintaining another language. Now this is like tying someone’s legs and telling him to run.”

    (AF:What this Canadian man Victor Fic,who has teaching experience in Japan and now reside in Korea doing some media job seemingly corroborate what the Pulvers’s cab driver was saying.But then again he is not)

    “The real scandal here is the failure of Japanese instructors to learn the world’s only global language — even after half a life time of effort and false promises — putting an eccentric and impossible burden on others. ”

    (So now he turns all the blame to his native colleagues! And you wonder the very reason why this guy isn’t capable learning supposed to be not-so-difficult-as-Polish-nor-Russian Japanese language and coming to Japan to teach in the first place…)

    “Japanese colleges are largely insular for the same reason much of the economy is: The society is closed. They don’t want you and stop pretending they do.”

    (Weirdest thing is eventhough Pulvers and Fic had completly different starting point and mindset,they both reached the same conclusion.)

  5. “When people in the West say that one of the basic differences of Japanese society is the emphasis on cultural harmony, they mean it! So why not believe it?”

    I don’t know how long Mr. Pulver has been in Japan but if the cab-drive event took place in the mid-80s and he was talking linguistics with the driver, I assume he has been involved with Japan and the language for some time. Me too, and in the 80s, I would have reacted more or less the same. But not in 2007. The matter at stake is less an issue of “belief” than a question of competence at “individually coping with the facts and differences of value”. In that sense, Mr. Pulver has been stuck in his 80s frame of mind and his incompetence at asking himself what is the core issue between me and things around being different. This is the core of the mystery to me with Mr. Pulver’s writing. Anyway, another possibility, and one reason why a Mr. Pulver is published in the JT is that he may in fact echo the concerns of readers who have been here for much less time and are confronted daily with the “differences”. Being confronted with “differences” is a matter of fact, simply because a few things are indeed “different” from home-sweet-home. Recognizing that things are different is one thing, coping with those differences starts with the not so obvious shift of mentality that means accepting there are indeed differences, period. Next comes the personal issue of nurturing that acceptation and I do believe it takes time and continuous efforts. The issues at stake are not the differences – they exists whether one is here to testify or not – but a matter of coming to terms with the awareness about the extent to how one is unprepared to accept that there are differences indeed, and that’s it. Everything else is tactical in terms of interaction with people. I now chew the fat with the drivers and go along with them to some extend when they want and be reassured of the uniqueness of this and that. It makes both of us feel good, which is a great achievement in terms of intercultural relations. After all, we can agree on quite a lot of things using the same vernacular, and chewing the fat about language or the weather is at times better than keeping silent.
    Mr. Pulver is not helping his reader but fanning the BBQ coal and entertain the heat. It may be his agenda when writing in the JP. Or maybe after all this time, he is still clueless.

  6. ampontan said

    Overthinker: Consider this an “encore presentation”, if you get my drift. Japanese is in the State Department’s “Most Difficult” class, along with Chinese and a few others. They used to have the list on the bulletin board of the language lab of the university where I studied. One of the others was, I think, the language of most of Ethiopia, whose name escapes me now.

    Russian was in the second tier. The students who staffed the language lab (setting up the tapes and reserving booths, etc.) were mostly students of Russian. They had a kind of superior attitude if someone came up to the window and asked for a Spanish or French tape. They were much more deferential to us and the students of Chinese.

    Aceface: “Japanese colleges are largely insular for the same reason much of the economy is: The society is closed. They don’t want you and stop pretending they do.”

    Such an old, tired, argument. With so many foreigners, it all boils down to the same thing: They go to a foreign country and expect people to make allowances for them, instead of realizing it has to be the other way around.

    So many people think the problem is with others instead of with themselves.

  7. bender said

    Are the taxi unchans in Kyushu nice? I didn’t find that to be the case in Tokyo.

  8. bingobangoboy said

    The US state department’s “most difficult” category consists of Arabic, Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese and Korean. Those categories are based on observing the average number of hours it takes a native English speaker to gain a high level of proficiency (not fluency) in the language. And I’m sure this roughly works backwards too; English, among others, is particularly those languages’ native speakers. But saying that a language is one of the most difficult for *English speakers* to learn is not the same as saying it’s the “most difficult in the world,” which I don’t think is testable or even meaningful. I know several Chinese and Koreans who have passed the JLPT level 1 with just one year of part-time study, a level of ability which I guess might be on a par with the State Department’s classifications. English speakers in the same conditions (part-time study while living in Japan) seem to require at least 3-4 years for the same feat. I say “at least” based on common opionion; the only English speakers I actually know who have passed JLPT 1, have lived here a lot longer and done some serious full-time study.

  9. ampontan said

    Bender: I’ve never had a problem at all. They drive too fast in Fukuoka, but then I’m used to living in a more laid-back, countrified place!

  10. […] an article in the Japan Times, Ampontan notes that it’s possible to learn a language and still not have a clue about the culture you’re in. Very interesting […]

  11. Aceface said

    I get on Taxi at least twice a week for I have to get to my office for the night shift.I found Taxi driver in Tokyo is basically OK in manners to the customers.Problem is the price.

    I remember James Fallows had written a piece almost the same as this one in the late 80’s,that Japanese cannot accept westerns have ability of learning the language.He too emphasized that he tried hard to catch the language during his staying in Japan in Japanese translation of “Containing Japan”.But when my friend got interviewed by Fallows, he only spoke English.
    Same goes to Michael Zielenger’s book on Hikikomori and Japan’s lost generation of the 90’s “Shutting out the Sun”,Zielenger claimed he talked to many informant in Japanese elsewhere.
    But I’ve also run into a blog http://d.hatena.ne.jp/ueyamakzk/20070125 about Hikikomori and the man who was interviewed by Zielenger says he was interviewed through translator and wonders how much he could tell the delicate nuances.Anyway the blogger seemes pretty critical about the book.

    Perhaps Pulvers is just trying to be overly pedantic or doing usual “poking Japanese ethnocentrism”(which itself is no problem,but why start from a cab driver….)
    But then again seeing so many Iranians in the early 90’s who manage to speak Japanese quite well through simply worlking in the factory for about a year or so,I too am skeptic about myth of linguistic difficulty of Japanese language.It’s just English speaker can have easier life here just as any where on the glove.

  12. pawikirogi said

    ‘Japanese is in the State Department’s “Most Difficult” class, along with Chinese and a few others.’ ampotan

    interesting you refer to korean as ‘others’ instead of by name.

    ‘But saying that a language is one of the most difficult for *English speakers* to learn is not the same as saying it’s the “most difficult in the world,” which I don’t think is testable or even…’

    very smart statement. japanese is hard for english speakers but for a korean, japanese would be a piece of cake. the reverse is true too.

    as for your comment referring to the chinese who passed the japanese language exam, i would say he must have been a real smart cookie since chinese grammar is more like english grammar than it is to korean or japanese grammar.

  13. Aceface said

    “I think, the language of most of Ethiopia, whose name escapes me now.”

    You mean Amharaic?

    You know the writer C.W Nichol,born in Wales and gotten Canadian citizenship in the 60’s and then obtained Japanese nationality in the 90’s?http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%E3%83%BBW%E3%83%BB%E3%83%8B%E3%82%B3%E3%83%AB.He used to be a warden in an Ethiopian national park back in the Haile Selassie days.As I had read his books he seemed to be fluent in Amharaic.He was also a Canadian public servant in the Northwest Territories and I believe he also speaks fluent in Inuit and ofcourse now Japanese.Quite a talent.

  14. ampontan said

    “interesting you refer to korean as ‘others’ instead of by name.”

    I don’t remember what else was on the list because that was in 1981. Judging from the content and tone of your posts, that must have been some years before you were born.

    Aceface: I think that was it. It was definitely in the top rank on the list, which makes me wonder if what I saw was a State Dept. list, based on BBB’s comment.

  15. KokuRyu said

    The US state department’s “most difficult” category consists of Arabic, Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese and Korean.

    I’m a JE translator, so I have the Japanese ‘proficiency’ down pat. I once tried studying Mandarin. It was pretty easy to read, that’s for sure. The pronunciation was killer, and I eventually gave up studying because I was not living in China and could not get the speaking time in to master it.

    Now I’m studying Korean. It’s remarkably similar to Japanese, and pretty easy to learn (although the pronunciation can be pretty subtle). So, all you Japanese speakers out there: learn Korean! It’s fun and easy!

  16. Fantasy said

    Excellent post, AMPONTAN !

  17. […] Is it possible to learn a language while remain clueless in its culture? Ampontan has some interesting discussion. Share This […]

  18. […] time, mere language ability does not result in regional expertise. And that’s the topic of a current post at Ampotan here. In […]

  19. Iceberg said

    Very interesting post. Enjoyed it.

    I consider myself fairly fluent in Korean, but there is no way I’d be able to say “elaborate case endings for adjectives, and even has a special one for the nominative plural of male animate nouns” in Korean.

    Hell, I’d even have a hard time saying it in English.

  20. Overthinker said

    “Hell, I’d even have a hard time saying it in English.”
    Damn right. In fact I would have a hard time hearing it (and understanding it). Which for anyone who isn’t a linguistics major is probably acceptable (and by that I don’t mean a language student, I mean someone who actually studies the rules and structures – you can learn a language perfectly without knowing the present subjunctive from the past pluperfect, after all).

  21. Aceface said

    And Roger”Polish-is-much-much-more-difficult”Pulvers on history.
    http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=53098

  22. Aceface said

    The article in question.
    http://wdsturgeon.googlepages.com/sankeishimbunarticlebykomori

  23. ampontan said

    Well, not just history, he also couldn’t resist to give the Japanese another language lesson:

    “In the past few years we have also seen the rise of the term kokunai no hannichi nihonjin, meaning “Japanese people who are anti-Japanese here at home.” This term actually illustrates a misuse of the word hannichi, which by all rights only applies to non-Japanese who are ill-disposed toward or hate this country.”

    He might not be aware that some in America have been talking about the “Blame America first” faction of Americans for about a quarter of a century and maybe more. Jeane Kirkpatrick, who went from Socialist to Democrat to non-Democrat, is credited with that expression.

  24. Aceface said

    I knew 非国民would be the right term instead of 国内の反日日本人.But what can I say.

    Komori is indeed a conservative journalist.And he has been pretty pissed off lately.But he is certainly no 1930’s like fascist figure.And JIIA is a branch of MoFA and considered as sorta dead end post for diplomat(according to Sato Masaru佐藤優)definitly not in the class of neither CSIS nor Brookings like Pulvers and others claim.I know because I used to work with some of the people from there.
    So I would say this turf war between policy wonks,Komori’s demand is in a way justifiable,Afterall why does MoFA related institution need to backstabs your PM and side with Beijing and Seoul.That’s a job for independent think-tank like NIRA or NOMURA.

    And for Tamamoto…When I was in Seoul this May,I read this English periodical published by North East Asian History Foundation.A 100% South Korean government foundation that promotes Korean side propaganda on hitory and territorial dispute to international society.
    And Tamamoto was one of the contributors in the first issue.
    http://japanese.historyfoundation.or.kr/his/acic.asp?pgcode=040101

  25. Overthinker said

    “in reality it is no more than the replanting of ideas that flourished here in the first two decades of Showa, ideas which led to the end of all democratic debate in this country. Is this happening again?”

    My one-word answer: NO. My expanded, three-word answer: NO NO NO. Japan is so far removed from the Japan of the 1930s it’s not funny. So many things conspired (bad word really) both domestically and internationally to let the fascists gain control then, and few of them are in appearance today. Even before the war the paths towards fascism were far from inevitable, and frankly to imply that Japan is about to lurch back there is at best a wilful disregard for history, at worst deliberate misleading for sensationalism. I don’t see too many self-styled patriots assassinating too many government leaders like the 一人一殺 movement of the 1930s, for example (in fact one of the more spectacular post-war instances of such was way back in the 1960s). I don’t think Kobayashi Yoshinori is exactly the Kita Ikki of the new generation. And “Kokka no Hinkaku” ain’t not “Kokutai no Hongi” either. It’s like there’s a version of Godwin’s Law that applies to discussion on Japan: as soon as something vaguely right-wing happens in Japan, it’s all cries of “neo-nationalism” and “Showa Restoration”….

  26. ampontan said

    Speaking of Godwin’s Law and Mr. Pulvers in the same context, I recommend this:

    http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20070107rp.html

    and this:

    http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20070121rp.html

    The second one is priceless for his description of a TV show he was once on.

    Don’t forget this is the same newspaper that regularly gives column space to Gregory Clark and Ted Rall.

  27. tomojiro said

    “The second one is priceless for his description of a TV show he was once on.”

    Men,I feel sympathy to Mr. Roger Pulver after reading his articles in Japan times.

    It is exactly like hearing nostalgic stories from left leaning Japanese “Oyaji” in their fifties. How good it was back then when he was young! I really like the fact that some non-Japanese seems to have fond memories of those days “WHEN THE JAPANESE WERE MORE OPEN”.

    Ha! Brilliant Oyaji talks! I like him.

    Men, I really think when Ampontan would have run his blog in the 80ies that the comments of the non-Japanese commentators and the reaction of the Japanese commentators would be more like that at Marmot’s hole (of course no offense intended to Marmot’s hole. It is a brilliant blog).

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  29. Overthinker said

    Looking at the second Pulver article about the ’80s and the follow-up about the ’90s, I am in a state of mild disbelief. Massively sweeping and leading statements dispatched with abandon, precisely no backup of any kind, and yet creating the impression of a rational discussion rather than the cranky letter to the editor they are.

    “This country seems to be opting for a kind of Designer Fascism social model, with decisions largely made in political cabals after only a semblance of democratic debate. Meanwhile, the media is shamefully abrogating its watchdog role, acting more like the Establishment’s lapdog, docile and tame, only emitting the occasional growl. And throughout this, the attitude of the Japanese people is a shrugging, apathetic, “Whatever.””

    Two things. This could be be pretty much any person complaining about any state at any time in history – “My voice isn’t recognised! Young people are worthless!” And second is that Apathy is Good. Apathetic people are by definition not fanatical, and thus not likely to follow fanatical goals. Back in those dreaded late 1930s, people were not apathetic – it was “how can I serve my country?”

    “If democracy is threatened in Japan, it will be due not solely to politicians enacting pernicious laws, or government bureaucrats channeling spending into the pockets and accounts of their corporate chums. It will primarily be the fault of ordinary Japanese people, whose apolitical apathy and social lethargy let democracy down.”

    How many pundits, I wonder, are writing the same things about the US? George Lucas, for one, in his thinly–disguised critique in Star Whores III about democracy dying with thunderous applause.

    “While the government’s policies today are, as yet, a far cry from the aggressive military policies of prewar Japan, the state of society now is not all that different from that in the 1930s, when seen from the point of view of the ordinary citizen.”

    Well, the first part of that is actually correct. The second part might be debated by people who were ordinary citizens back then. And then he links all the cherry-blossom Great War of Asian Liberation rhetoric with Abe’s much-ridiculed (by Japanese) “Utsukushii kuni” idea? Rather than “dissent” being quashed, wasn’t Abe quashed instead…?

  30. Overthinker said

    Just found this in the JT, and couldn’t resist the irony:
    “Abe ‘beautiful country’ panel waste of funds, Fukuda says

    Kyodo News

    Prime Minister Yasuo Fukuda calls a now defunct office established to promote his predecessor Shinzo Abe’s initiative to build “a beautiful nation” a waste of money.

    Fukuda made the remarks after the government reported Wednesday that the office spent ¥49 million in its six months of existence, before it was scrapped with Abe’s resignation in September. The office had held only two meetings of experts in that period.”

    So much for Pulver’s fearmongering. But anyway, for Pulver, wouldn’t this be a bit like Hiranuma Kiichiro (PM after Konoye Fumimaro, who was PM when 1937 war with China started) saying that the China War was a waste of money and withdrawing troops? Since he didn’t and they didn’t, can we suppose that Utsukushii Kuni is not actually anything like 1930s fascism? (Of course I could get into the whole idea that the government of Japan at the time didn’t *want* a war with China to start, or expand [不拡大論], but nah. Otherwise we’d probably have to suppose that the Utsukushii Kuni idea was promoted by the Teacher’s Union (Nikkyoso, standing in for the Army) or something equally daft. The whole thing is daft.

    But wow, fifty million for two meetings? I’d support Utsukushii Kuni (or anything you like, frankly) for that kind of money….

  31. Aceface said

    Too true.What exactly were they drinking at the meetings,a Perrier bottle with some gold flake inside?

    Pulvers is an exiled American now has Australian citizenship.I can understand his phobic on anything that look and feel like a patriotic zingoism,but…

    I thought we were seen pretty much as nationalistic back in the good ol’ bubble days of the 80’s with Nakasone goes to Yasukuni and Mitsubishi buying Rockefeller center and all.Can’t find my old copy of “Rising Sun”,so can’t tell exactly how America felt all that”Japanese are coming”scare.

    Anyway Pulvers is definitly an ideal contributor for “Without fear nor favor”.

  32. Maccy said

    I find this discussion very interesting. I think that the article by Pulvers has a lot of valid points. One of the best-selling books in Japan right now is “The National Dignity”. Nationalism has definitely made a triumphant return to center stage in Japanese life and politics. Saying that the same is happening in the US and elsewhere really is irrelevant. That doesn’t have any bearing on whether or not this is happening in Japan. While you all are so quick to criticize and label him cranky, why don’t you stop digging for ad hominem attacks and instead discuss the central issues.

    The Japanese are very apathetic politically, both young and old. Corruption is rampant, half the population is discriminated against in employment. Recent studies have ranked Japan dead last for gender equality among all the developed nations. Although women make up half the population these statistics show their clout in the workforce:
    2.1 -2.8 percent of upper management positions.
    11 percent of managerial positions (compared, for example, with 42% in the US and even higher percentages in Europe.)
    There are more numbers, but I think that says a lot. Yet where’s the outcry? I don’t know a single Japanese woman who likes this, but in all this time it hasn’t changed. The political system isn’t set up to handle dissent on a mass scale. It was established by elites, not by some uprising of the common man. That’s never happened in Japan. Saying that these things are true for other nations is so terribly irrelevant…It doesn’t mean they aren’t true for Japan as well. I think the reason many people are afraid of Japanese nationalism is the power that ethnic nationalism has and how much more likely that form of nationalism is to develop in virtually mono-ethnic nations. An interesting read on what happened in the 30’s is Nyozekan Hasegawa’s “The Japanese Character: A Cultural Profile. The main element of 30’s nationalism is actually when Japanese tradition is distorted and misconstrued by those in power. Hasegawa examines Japanese history pointing out that it has always been a tolerant and open society, liberally taking architectural forms, technologies, ideas, and even people from elsewhere and integrating them into Japanese society. He points out the willingness to transform and adapt that’s evident throughout Japanese history and discusses how this tolerance is the essence of Japanese culture. But prior to WWII the nationalists and their supporters downplayed this tradition and instead argued the preeminence of everything that is “Japanese”. Hmmm, this sounds kind of like what Pulvers and others say about contemporary Japan. This doesn’t mean that anything is going to happen but there’s no doubt the same factors are there. Apathy itself is not dangerous, it just means that politicians have a freer hand. What’s bad or good is what they do with that free hand. Instead of going to extremes it’s better to discuss what they want to do. I think the most interesting thing about it all is that the same people are in charge, with the same vested interests and cabals. I think any sensible person would be wary that those same people would make the same mistakes…If you’re interested in Hasegawa here’s the book description from Amazon:

    Book Description
    Written during a period (1935-38) when, according to the author, there was much talk of the Japanese spirit and of the superiority of things Japanese, the essays collected here explore the essential nature of the Japanese character. The author notes that “the virtues of the Japanese national character are not only mistaken by foreigners, but are frequently misunderstood by the Japanese themselves.” His penetrating examination of the Japanese character opens up important new avenues of thought on a subject about which, even today, comparatively little has been written in English.

    As for the Japanese hardest language in the world thing, as someone else pointed out that completely depends where you’re starting from. I don’t think poepAnyway that’s my two cents. Given the strength of the American dollar I know it’s not much but there ya go. Peace

  33. tomojiro said

    Maccy: If you want to understand a “place” then you have to understand what is happen there in their context. I agree with your opinion that equality among genders about official life in contemporary Japan is embarrassing. However, (I am not proud of this and say it with shame), still the status of women in Japanese society has remarkably changed. Far from enough but it has improved greatly.

    “I think the reason many people are afraid of Japanese nationalism is the power that ethnic nationalism has and how much more likely that form of nationalism is to develop in virtually mono-ethnic nations.”

    A good joke.

    You are just joking, aren’t you?

  34. Overthinker said

    “Yet where’s the outcry?”
    Where are you looking for this outcry?

    “Hmmm, this sounds kind of like what Pulvers and others say about contemporary Japan. This doesn’t mean that anything is going to happen but there’s no doubt the same factors are there.”
    The fact that it sounds “kind of like” what Pulvers is saying does not make what Pulvers is saying correct. And there is of course doubt. Some of the factors may be present in different amounts, but the extent of that presence, the significance of that presence, and the relative importance of each one are very much “in doubt.”

    With regard to Hasegawa, while I am not taking issue with his thesis (at least not without having actually read it), it is important to note that just because a writer writes something, that does not mean it is true – why did Hasegawa write this book at this time? What was his goal with it? Who was its audience? Social critiques like that don’t generally come out of the blue and to understand his ideas we need to understand the context (can probably say the same about Pulver, for that matter). I do think it would be hard to label pre-modern Japan as “tolerant” in many senses of the word, for example, except perhaps in comparison to the draconian controls on anti-Imperial and anti-capitalist ideas in the 1930s. Hasegawa seems to been pushing for a more liberal, tolerant Japan in the late 1930s (which wouldn’t be hard to imagine). A bit of pushing at the limits of censorship perhaps? There’s an interesting-looking article at
    http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-168662849.html
    that may be of interest. Don’t have time to read the whole thing right now unfortunately.

    As to politicians having a freer hand, aside from hoping they become apathetic as well, hopefully their (presumably) draconian ideals will be largely ignored by the apathetic populace. I cannot imagine a nations of Freeters and Neets going Banzai and marching off to war any time soon….

  35. Aceface said

    Maccy:

    “While you all are so quick to criticize and label him cranky, why don’t you stop digging for ad hominem attacks and instead discuss the central issues.”
    それならポーランド語よりもずっと簡単な日本語で反論させてもらうぜ。

    Instead of going to extremes it’s better to discuss what they want to do. I think the most interesting thing about it all is that the same people are in charge,

    笹川良一みたいに、戦後は右翼活動の合間にノーベル平和賞もらうために、慈善にいそしんだのもいるぜ。どっちにしても、もうとっくに当事者はみんな死んでると思うけどな。

    ”Saying that these things are true for other nations is so terribly irrelevant…It doesn’t mean they aren’t true for Japan as well. I think the reason many people are afraid of Japanese nationalism is the power that ethnic nationalism has and how much more likely that form of nationalism is to develop in virtually mono-ethnic nations.”

    ”But prior to WWII the nationalists and their supporters downplayed this tradition and instead argued the preeminence of everything that is “Japanese”. Hmmm, this sounds kind of like what Pulvers and others say about contemporary Japan. This doesn’t mean that anything is going to happen but there’s no doubt the same factors are there. ”

    別に戦前も日本人らしさを追及したからそうなったわけではない。政党政治が廃止され、言論が検閲され、軍隊が戦争をはじめたから起きたわけで、パルバースや君がいってることは結局のところ「日本人は危険だ。なぜなら彼らは日本人だからだ。だからオレみたいな歯に絹着せず日本たたきをするヤツが必要なんだ」というのと変わりはない。それに日本には
    外国人が占める割合は年々増えてるんだぜ。(ウチにも二人ほどいるが)国民が同質的だから過激なナショナリスムに走りや易いというのは、アメリカ人(に限らないが)の偏見だ。今のアメリカやイギリスを見てみろよ。外国人から指紋は取るわ、国内の電話は盗聴するわ、街角という街角に監視カメラを置くわ。国内の人口構成が多様であれば、社会はよりリベラルになるというのは幻想だね。もっと複雑な要素が関係してくる話のはずだろう。それより、君らのウチの国は多文化でオタクは違うからダメなんて論理のほうがよっぽどファシスト的だとオレは思うがね。

    “One of the best-selling books in Japan right now is “The National Dignity”. Nationalism has definitely made a triumphant return to center stage in Japanese life and politics.”!

    そもそも君は「国家の品格」を実際に読んだのかい?確かにくだらない本だと思うがあの中にはこんな一節もあるんだぜ。

    「策士スターリンと毛沢東に誘いこまれたとはいえ、当時中国に侵略していくというのは、まったく無意味な「弱いものいじめ」でした。武士道に照らし合わせれば、これはもっとも恥ずかしい奇妙なことです。」

    スターリンと毛がうんぬんというのはなるほど問題だ。スターリンの件に関して(おそらく)藤原が言いたいのは、ユン・チアンとジョン・ハリデーのベストセラー「マオ」の中で、柳条湖事件で張作霖が爆殺されてのは、日本で教科書にも載っている関東軍ではなく、ソ連のGRUの工作員が中国と日本を反目させるために起こした作戦と主張されていることを受けたものだ。
    毛の方は多分コレが理由。
    ウィキペディアより引用(日本側研究者の見解は、「中国側第二十九軍の偶発的射撃」ということで、概ねの一致を見ている(秦郁彦『盧溝橋事件の研究』175頁;安井三吉『盧溝橋事件』19頁)。中国側研究者は「日本軍の陰謀」説を、また、日本側研究者の一部には「中国共産党の陰謀」説を唱える論者も存在するが、いずれも大勢とはなっていない。
    「中国共産党陰謀説」の有力な根拠としてあげられているのは、葛西純一が、中国共産党の兵士向けパンフレットに盧溝橋事件が劉少奇の指示で行われたと書いてあるのを見た、と証言していることであるが、葛西が現物を示していないことから、事実として確定しているとはいえない、との見方が大勢である。)

    どっちにしても今の日本では異端にあたる説で歴史学者からは支持はされていないし、教科書にも反映はされていない。俺が唯一ヤバいとおもったのはここだけ。あとはあの年齢のおっさんなら居酒屋で言いそうなことばかり。

    ちなみに藤原の「武士道」とは「慈愛、誠実、忍耐、正義、勇気、惻隠」と「卑怯なことはしてはいけない」というもので、新渡戸稲造が英語で書いた「武士道」と酷似している。新渡戸自身は武士の家の出身で、むしろ札幌農学校時代に受けたキリスト教の影響に西洋の騎士道を混ぜ合わせてこの本を書いた。台湾の李前総統が賞賛しているのも、藤原と同様、新渡戸武士道であって、江戸時代のそれではない。ましてや戦前の軍人勅諭とは180度違うものだ。むしろ戦後リベラルの言っていることに近い。

    俺には「国家の品格」はそれほど声高にナショナリズムを語っているようには見えないね。勘違いが全編に行き渡っているとは思うが、それは別に「危険」じゃない。

    日本ではメディア、特に新聞が圧倒的に左寄りだ。(日本をめぐる海外メディアの視線も基本的に好意的なものは少数派だとオレは思ってる。)だから、その不満や反動は書籍部門のベストセラーという形で常に現れてきた。古きは辻政信の「潜行三千里」(1950年)から倉前盛道の「悪の論理学」(1970年)石原慎太郎の「NOと言える日本」(1989年)西尾幹二の「国民の歴史」といった形でだ。これらはもちろんさまざまな形で批判の対象となっているし、君がそうしたベストセラーにどうした世相を読み取るかは自由だ。だけどこうした現象は過去にも起きたし、それらはなんら日本の民主主義にも世論にも後にまで残る影響は及ぼさなかった。こうした経験に即して考えれば、「国家の品格」をめぐって大騒ぎをして、藤原の議論にハクをつけてやることのほうが、問題と思うけどな。

    日本の社会で言論が保障され、メディア空間の左傾化が続く限り、この手の「反動ベストセラー」は今後も手を変え品を変え生み出され続けるし、そのたびに「日本の民主主義の危機」や「日本の危険なナショナリズム」が叫ばれるだろう。

    Although women make up half the population these statistics show their clout in the workforce:
    11 percent of managerial positions (compared, for example, with 42% in the US and even higher percentages in Europe.)
    There are more numbers, but I think that says a lot. Yet where’s the outcry? I don’t know a single Japanese woman who likes this, but in all this time it hasn’t changed. ”

    今いえることは、二つ。
    一つ目は20年前はその数字はもっと低かったということと、日本の年功序列制度が健在な限り、女性の管理職はゆっくりとしか増えざるをえない。そして、年功所列は終身雇用が存続することが前提で、そのためには正社員と非正規社員の
    2重構造が必要だ。主に4年生大学を卒業した女性は非正規社員として日本企業を支えている。女性が大幅に企業社会に進出するにはこの2重構造を打破しなければならないが、多くの女性はそれを望まない。なぜなら彼女たちの多くは夫の収入で暮らしている主婦でもあるからだ。終身雇用を崩せば、社会不安が生じ、人々は不安定な将来に備え、消費を切り詰め貯金に走る。だから不景気が続くんだ。そして政治家は景気を良くしろと経済界からも有権者からも海外からも圧力をかけられ続けている。当然女性の社会進出は後回しだ

    二つ目はこの問題は始終メディアに取り上げられているということだけだ。ここ数年テレビや新聞でこうした「格差社会」について語られない日はないね。君がそうした事実をなぜ無視するのかはわからないけど。

    ”Apathy itself is not dangerous, it just means that politicians have a freer hand. What’s bad or good is what they do with that free hand. ”

    いまだに病院から出ることもできない安部晋三に、ぜひ君の口からそれを伝えてやれよ。

    ”with the same vested interests and cabals. I think any sensible person would be wary that those same people would make the same mistakes…”

    それを言うなら、日本脅威論を展開している連中も同じだぜ。80年代に日本が世界を買い占めるとか行ってたやつらや、90年代に日本は破綻して世界を恐慌に巻き込むとか抜かしていたやつらは、いまだに日本がらみの仕事を続けているんだ。ウォルフレンやチャルマーズ・ジョンソンやジェームス・ファローズやスティーブン・クレモンズはなぜそう言われないんだ。「日本が軍国化」するという話もそうだ。この60年間で一年でも「日本が危険だ」と言われなかった年があるかい?連中の無責任な予想ははずれ続けるが、なんのペナルティーも科せられないなんてバカなことがあるか。

    パルバースの「予言」が当たらなかったら、彼の知的素養や日本に関する知識の信頼度はいくらかでも減るのかね。

    オレの意見じゃこの手の「国際的オオカミ少年」産業は今後も安泰さ。連中は結局のところ英語と日本に無知な国際社会の壁に守られてるんだ。ワリを食うのはいつもオレたちさ。

  36. Paul said

    Ampontan, this is called small talk. It’s not unique to Japan. What is it with people writing about ordinary human habits as though they’re Japanese traits?

  37. Ret said

    The original article reminds me of the theory that Japanese believe their own language is so difficult for two reasons: 1) it makes them unique and special and 2) foreigners who struggle with the language make them feel better about their own failings at learning foreign languages. I don’t know that I believe it, but it came to mind when I read the article.

    And really, who the hell gets into a discussion about linguistics with your average taxi driver?! Treat it as chit chat, or agree that it was difficult and use it as an opening for a decent conversation.

  38. gaijinalways said

    I agree, it does sound odd to have a linguistic debate with a taxi driver, though I would disagree that many Japanese don’t seem to be on a superiority trip. It’s common to have odd questions float out from Japanese and bitterness arise when they realize(subconsciously anyways); that people can learn their language, that people don’t always agree with keeping something a certain way just because it has been done that way for a while (hey, why not keep slavery, it was tradition)or that people can disagree in certain situations.

    Finally, actually myself, I don’t mind not talking to the taxi driver, he is paid to take me somewhere after all, isn’t he?

  39. 21st Century Schizoid Man said

    A: This is just for posting sake for one obvious reason (obvious to me and if so, everybody here would see that). So never mind.

    Quote

    (Guys like that in Japan tend to open up coffee shops or bars, play jazz on the shop’s sound system, and refer to famous musicians by their first name only.)

    Unquote

    Actually, from my observation, people here tend to refer to John Coltrane as Coltrane, to Art Blakey as Blakey, to Art Pepper as Pepper, to Doug Watkins as Watkins, while they refer to Miles Davis as Miles and Jaco Pastorius as Jaco. So, whichever of first and last names is fine as long as it serves to distinguish one from another – using Art may cause confusion between A. Blakey/A. Pepper/A. Taylor. Exceptions would include Pat Metheny, they can refer to him either by Pat or Metheny, but there are not so much giants having the name Pat.

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