AMPONTAN

Japan from the inside out

Yasukuni: The sound of one hand clapping

Posted by ampontan on Saturday, August 18, 2007

THE EYES OF EAST ASIA and many journalists around the world were focused on the Yasukuni shrine in Tokyo on August 15th, the anniversary of Japan’s surrender in 1945, to see whether Prime Minister Shinzo Abe would pay a visit. The scrutiny was inevitable now that so many have invested so much emotional energy in the boogeyman of resurgent right wing Japanese nationalism.

One wonders why they bothered. It had been almost a foregone conclusion that the prime minister wouldn’t appear. One of his first acts after taking office was to meet with the leaders of both China and South Korea and smooth the waters that former Prime Minister Jun’ichiro Koizumi roiled with his annual Yasukuni pilgrimages. Mr. Abe wasn’t about to squander the goodwill he created, particularly now that his political position is in severe jeopardy after the recent upper house elections. He also wasn’t about to court additional controversy, even though any controversy that would occur would largely occur outside of Japan.

What did happen at Yasukuni on the 15th? Nothing much–and that’s a lot more significant than a parade of some politicians arriving at the shrine in official vehicles wearing rented formal attire to show their faces.

Only one member of the Cabinet made an official visit. That was Sanae Takaichi (photo), minister in charge of gender equality and Okinawa-related issues. The shrine started receiving visitors at 6:00 a.m., but Ms. Takaichi waited until the afternoon to go (though she held a press conference to talk about it in the morning).

The disappointment of the professional rubberneckers was almost palpable. It must have been like hanging around the clubhouse doors at Boston’s Fenway Park to get an autograph from Daisuke Matsuzaka and having to settle for a glimpse of the third-string catcher instead.

Who else worthy of the media attention came? Former Prime Minister Koizumi put in his annual appearance, and he was cheered by a few hundred ultranationalists who came for the opportunity to perform their postmodern samurai sketch for the cameras, wearing costumes with wooden swords. That meshed with the story the media wanted to tell, so that’s the story the media told.

Most didn’t manage to find the space to talk about something just as important in today’s Japan–the 260 counter demonstrators who showed up to demand that Japan retain its pacifist principles and Constitution. That doesn’t mesh with the story the media wants to tell. As a result, the stories seen around the world strangely resemble paper dolls—a large sheet of paper with holes cut out in certain places to create the desired image.

It was even more difficult for the commentariat to make something out of nothing, but of course they tried. One example is Gordon Chang’s post in the blog Contentions presented by Commentary magazine. A China specialist who occasionally writes about Japan and other countries in East Asia, Mr. Chang inadvertently demonstrates that the wiser course for people who aren’t fully conversant with the issue would be to avoid it altogether.

His post is given the clumsy and insulting title, “Japan’s Bad Memories”. Such an inept double entendre: it suggests both that Japanese memories of the war are bad ones, and that the memory banks of the entire country shut down when the subject of their behavior in that war is raised. It’s the second clause that doesn’t belong—it is so incorrect that anyone who tries to make the claim has no business writing about Japan. But perhaps Mr. Chang did not choose the title himself.

The author’s floundering is evident throughout the post; it is difficult to conceal that one is writing about a non-event. He spends a paragraph on the ultranationalists and their greeting for former Prime Minister Koizumi. He does not mention the counter demonstration at all; likely he was unaware of it. He links to a Reuters article that uses even more space to shock/entertain us with the ultranationalists, and their article too fails to mention the counter demonstration. Unlike Mr. Chang, they were probably aware of it and chose not to mention it. It’s been a while since the name Reuters was synonymous with integrity in journalism.

Mr. Chang then starts one paragraph with this sentence:

Analysts will undoubtedly pore over yesterday’s events in Tokyo.

Undoubtedly they will. And their perusal will undoubtedly result in one or more of the following:

  1. They will fail to see key events that occurred right before their eyes.
  2. They will see that which does not exist.
  3. They will misinterpret what they see that does exist.
  4. And very few–if any–will manage to write something about “yesterday’s events in Tokyo” that is worth reading. How could they? They fail to grasp the importance of nothing important happening.

He continues with this sentence:

Many worry about rising nationalism in Japan.

Many also worry about alien abductions, but that doesn’t mean we have to spend any time taking them seriously.

Mr. Chang then proceeds with a litany of the by now predictable complaints. Mr. Abe is trying to instill patriotic education. Perhaps a contrived uno mundo education is more desirable? Mr. Abe is trying to strengthen the military. With China and North Korea in the same neighborhood, wouldn’t he be derelict in his duties not to?

It’s almost as if the author is playing a hand of bridge. He starts with the lower cards in this particular suit and then continues up the ladder to the face cards—the comfort women and then the Nanjing Massacre. Unfortunately, he overplays his hand by speculating (Mr. Koizumi might return to replace Mr. Abe as prime minister) and then using that speculation as a basis to ratchet up the crisis-mongering even further. (This would cause a further deterioration in East Asian relations.)

Apparently Mr. Chang thinks some readers still take seriously sentences constructed in the following manner: If X happens, then Y will undoubtedly happen. So it might. But since X has to happen first–and in cases such as these, the possibility is usually far-fetched—it’s pointless to bring the subject up.

Oddly, Mr. Chang seems to have selected the wrong link for the passage about Mr. Koizumi’s possible return. The link takes us instead to an article in the People’s Daily—such an impeccable source—about the attitude of Japanese young people toward Yasukuni and the war, not about Mr. Koizumi. It contains this passage:

Actually, young Japanese know that the invasion war was an indecent history (sic)…Most of them think they are unrelated with the evil history, so it is not their responsibility to apologize.

Now isn’t that an irony? Mr. Chang attempts to play his final card and fashion serious punditry out of this sow’s ear. Instead, he slips up with the link and is hoist by his own petard, demonstrating that this is in fact a non-story. Of course young Japanese (if everyone under the age of 70 can be considered young) know that the war was “indecent”, they had nothing to do with it, and it is not their responsibility to apologize. After repeated apologies by political leaders and peace treaties with both China and South Korea that should have ended the matter, why should they think otherwise?

Mr. Chang then concludes:

Tokyo and Moscow have never formally signed a peace treaty with each other to end World War II. Even if they do so—not likely, due to ongoing disputes over islands that Soviet troops grabbed at the end of the conflict—it does not appear that the war in Asia will be over anytime soon.

Mr. Chang should have used a different preposition. The Soviets seized the islands after the end of the conflict, not at the end of the conflict. They refuse to give them back, so it’s no wonder a peace treaty hasn’t been signed.

And of course, the last clause “…it does not appear the war in Asia will be over anytime soon…” is prima facie evidence of the author’s superficial grasp of this particular issue, despite the attempt to appear profound.

Political visits to Yasukuni are not a burning issue in Japan. As the People’s Daily article linked to in error indicates, most people just don’t care. Those people who visit the shrine are more interested in it as a memorial for all the thousands of spirits enshrined there, rather than those of 14 Class A war criminals. The ultranationalists could only rustle up a group vaguely estimated to be in the “hundreds” from an immediate metropolitan area of more than 10 million people, and they were countered by a pacifist group also numbering in the “hundreds”.

By now it should be obvious even to those who seldom pay attention that the objective of those politicians who do visit the shrine every August is not to revive the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. They’ve said on many occasions that their intent is to reaffirm the desire for peace and to honor the service rendered to the country by their ancestors. (This is a Shinto institution, after all.) The implication that they’re lying and that Japan is anxious to reassert an aggressive military posture in East Asia is fatuous and reveals the vacuity of the observer.

What the politicians seldom say outside of Japan is that the visits are part of their wish to reestablish Japanese statehood (in the nation-state sense of the term). They think Japan lost this self-awareness with their defeat in the war. Of course other Japanese disagree, but no one in the country thinks this means the Yasukuni visitors want to colonize Mongolia, Taiwan, and the Korean Peninsula again.

It also should be equally obvious that elements in China and South Korea aren’t refighting the war either. They are aware that peace treaties were signed more than a generation ago. Their focus is on the future, not the past. Those countries have chosen to define themselves as modern states by incorporating anti-Japanese sentiment, and to use history as a blunt instrument both to mold public opinion at home and to wield in their bilateral relations with Japan.

Perhaps one of these days those countries will realize the Japanese know what’s coming, keep dodging the blows, and that swinging harder won’t make it easier to hit them.

Perhaps one of these days, other observers overseas will take the time to actually examine what is happening in this part of the world instead of viewing it through a superficial anti-Japanese lens of conventional ignorance wisdom.

Their preconceived notions—or rather, unexamined prejudices precast in conceptual concrete—led them to write and broadcast about nothing happening in a way that suggests something actually happened at Yasukuni on August 15.

They should have just told the truth instead of sticking to the ragged, dog-eared script: Nothing important happened. That in itself is important enough.

88 Responses to “Yasukuni: The sound of one hand clapping”

  1. Ken said

    It would be bad indeed if one were to get an autograph from the Red Sox’ third string catcher, considering we don’t have one ;)\

    Mr. Abe is trying to strengthen the military. With China and North Korea in the same neighborhood, wouldn’t he be derelict in his duties not to?

    But since when has Mr Abe done anything to strengthen the military? The budget is still falling and F-4s are still in use. Nothing has been done in terms of equipment upgrades on his watch. I neither see an accusation to be made nor anyone (worth reading) making a serious one in this realm.

    Mr Abe is seriously derelict in his duties, although we can be somewhat assured by the fact that the DPRK is no threat and China will simply fall apart by 2012.

  2. […] saw and read about this image from the Yasukuni shrine this week, but no one probably read about what else was going on at the shrine that day.  Just another example of the media looking for images to fit the story they want to tell […]

  3. Albion said

    Ampontan,

    Political visits to Yasukuni are indeed an issue in Japan. Pick up any vernacular newspaper and you will see articles, news analysis pieces and editorials on the issue. In particular, read the “To the Editor” sections of a range of newspapers (Yomiuri, Asahi, Mainichi, etc) and you will see a wide range of opinions regarding visits to Yasukuni Shrine by politicians.

  4. ampontan said

    Albion: That’s not what the voters in public opinion surveys say. When the uproar over Koizumi’s visits was at its highest, and he called the snap election of the Diet, it only ranked 5th in issues of interest, and the numbers who thought it was important were quite low.

    It’s not an issue that is going to make or break an election or a political career.

  5. Ken said

    Actually, there’s quite a few who believe that Koizumi’s promises to visit Yasukuni are exactly what made his career, and that his visit this year was an attempt to diffuse that criticism.

  6. Albion said

    It’s not an issue that is important enough to override voters’ concern for, say, their future retirement benefits or the fact that many LDP policies have made it increasingly difficult for individuals to earn a living (the infamous “kakusa-shakai” issue). But it is debated, and sometimes quite vigorously, among Japanese. It isn’t as “off the radar” as you portray it.

    Plus, while it isn’t an issue in and of itself that “is going to make or break a political career,” politicians who create the image of being “nationalistic” by visiting Yasukuni Shrine are sabotaging their own credibility vis-a-vis other, more important issues.

    Why do you think Koizumi waited until his term as PM was up before he visited the shrine on August 15, the end of the war memorial day? That’s not a rhetorical question: it’s pretty obvious he waited because he no longer had a reason to worry about criticism.

    Bottom line: it isn’t as cut-and-dried an issue as you attempt to portray it.

    I am as upset as you by people who see Japan through their own ideological filters. That’s why I felt strongly enough to write a post (2 posts, really) informing readers of this blog that the Japanese public’s view of Yasukuni visits by PMs and other politicians is varied, with many against it for reasons that have nothing to do with “pressure” from China or Korea.

    Those reasons include: family member killed in Hiroshima or Nagasaki, family member sent to his death as a “Tokkotai” pilot, family separated in the post-war chaos as Manchuria and other parts of China were taken over by the Soviets and others and sisters, brothers, et al got left behind (the so-called “zan-ryu”), etc etc.

    There is a lot of bitterness toward the early Showa military control of the government and what it led to during the war.

    Many, if not most, of these people see Yasukuni as a memorial to a way of life/thinking that led to personal and national disaster.

    I hasten to add that they are NOT therefore automatically coldly indifferent to the deaths of the many people honored at Yasukuni. They — I get this information not only from personal conversations but also from the Letters to the Editor sections of many newspapers — have complex feelings regarding Yasukuni.

    Rightists attempt to flatten out all the nuance and complexity of those feelings by claiming that being against Yasukuni visits is the same as being against honoring war dead. That is similar to US rightists attempting to portray those against the war in Iraq as “Saddam supporters.” Such views are as insulting as they are dim-witted.

  7. ponta said

    I am inclined to agree with Anpontan. An average Japanese do not care whether someone visit Yasukuni.
    That is the impression I get from the talking with people around me.
    I for one do not care if PM visit Yasukuni or not. I think that it is purely a matter of freedom to faith and that the freedom to faith should not be oppressed
    by speculating his/her motivation to the faith.

    Surely the issue is debated among some Japanese just as they debate whether it is okay to hoist a national flag , to sing a national anthem once or twice a year in public school:some people want to link them with Japan’s past militarism—You can link anything past during WWⅡ with the past militarism for your convenient political purpose and oppose it.

    In Japan the population of anime cos-player is by far larger than nationalist cos-player. It might be that Yasukuni was a symbol of Japanese nationalism but I for one think it is not a symbol of Japanese nationalism anymore, but rather it is a symbolic target of Chinese and Korean ultra nationalism.

  8. Albion said

    Ponta,

    1. We are not talking about “someone” visiting Yasukuni; we are talking about the PM of Japan and other high-level government officials doing it

    2. Top level government officials have freedom of faith, of course — as private citizens. When the PM of Japan signs his name “Koizumi Junichiro, Prime Minister” on the registry at Yasukuni, that is not acting in the capacity of a private citizen. The actions of the PM cannot be considered “equivalent” to the actions of private citizens.

    3. One cannot link “anything” to Japan’s past militarism. The fact that war dead — including military leaders — from the WWII period are honored at Yasukuni links it to Japan’s past militarism. No one has actively “linked” the two as if by magic; the two are intrinsically linked.

    4. Of course everyone understands that Yasukuni is being used by China and Korea to stir up their own ultra-nationalist fervor. They have their own self-serving reasons for doing so. That in no way negates the fact that many Japanese have mixed feelings about Japanese government officials visiting the shrine in an official capacity (ie, signing their names with their official titles).

    These two things can be simultaneously true (that is, they are not mutually exclusive):

    1. China and Korea are blowing out of proportion the importance of Japanese government officials’ visits to Yasukuni

    2. Many Japanese people have mixed feelings about their government officials visiting Yasukuni and some of them are very much against such visits.

  9. bender said

    There is a lot of bitterness toward the early Showa military control of the government and what it led to during the war.

    I think this is true.

  10. ponta said

    Albion
    Thanks
    First let me confirm that Japanese people are anti-war, and they hate militarism. There is severe civilian control. I hope we can agree this much, ain’t I?

    When the PM of Japan signs his name “Koizumi Junichiro, Prime Minister” on the registry at Yasukuni, that is not acting in the capacity of a private citizen.

    I am not sure if he signs his name “Koizumi junichiro, prime minister” on registry at the private wedding, but I am sure he privately gave people the visiting card with his title .That does not make it the official greeting. And he made clear that

    He makes the visits as an individual citizen, not in an official capacity.

    http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/postwar/yasukuni/position.html
    I don’t understand why an ordinary person and the former Prime minister can visit Yasukuni, but the present prime minister can not.

    The fact that war dead — including military leaders — from the WWII period are honored at Yasukuni links it to Japan’s past militarism.

    Military leaders are not honored. The war deads, according to Yasukuni’s religion, are regarded as devine, and they were honored because they are afraid of their curse.

    Innocent people are killed in the name of God;still there are people who worship God. Some people believe in God who they believe killed innocent people just because they led lazy lives. The religion might have been sexist, regional, parochial. These fact “can” be linked with the religion’s brutality;still, I think people have the freedom to the faith. I believe the freedom to faith is a trump against political pressure.

    Or let’s take other examples. Mao is worshipped. Syngman Rhee is honored at the national cemetry. MacArther,Dudley Walker Morton are honored. Innocent people were killed under their rule. So it is not unusual that people honor a person for something other than the fact that they were the leader under whom innocent people are killed.People just don’t link them with the brutal aspect.

    That in no way negates the fact that many Japanese have mixed feelings about Japanese government officials visiting the shrine in an official capacity

    I think basically many people have mixed feelings about Japanese government officials visiting the shrine because they fear diplomatic relations with China will deteriorate. I want Chinaese people to understand that most of Japanese know Japanese troop
    committed horrible crimes in China during WWⅡ, and Japanese people are determined not to commit the same
    mistake again. But Yasukuni is religion in which the deads are worshipped not because of what they did, but because they are dead.And the freedom to the faith is given the first rate priority.

  11. bender said

    I don’t understand why an ordinary person and the former Prime minister can visit Yasukuni, but the present prime minister can not.

    Of course it’s different- the present PM is the representative of the state. Should he, as the representative of Japan, visit a Shinto shrine that was the center of an oppressive state religion that was used to drive the nation into a devastating war?

    And assuming that there’s no problem with the shrine in that respect, are the war leaders “heroes” who died for the nation, or traitors of their own people? I’m pretty sure many Japanese think the leaders should not be enshrined.

  12. ponta said

    Bender
    Thanks

    the present PM is the representative of the state. Should he, as the representative of Japan, visit a Shinto shrine that was the center of an oppressive state religion that was used to drive the nation into a devastating war?

    It is not the problem of whether he should, or he should not, but it is problem of whether he can or he not in his private capacity.
    And Yasukuni didn’t oppress people. It is some of crazy military officers who oppressed people.
    Yasukuni functioned to transform the sorrowness of the people who lost their families to the joy because they believed being enshrined at Yasukuni was honor.
    Religion always has something to do with consolation of the sorrowness the death bring about.
    And the soldier promised each other that they would meet at Yasukuni after the death.

    There was a times Christianity oppressed people. It was used to drive into a devastating war. And yet people have freedom in their private capacity to have a faith in Christianity.

    I’m pretty sure many Japanese think the leaders should not be enshrined.

    I hear some bereaved families and some veterans hate the idea that their sons and friends are enshrined with their cruel superiors. In a way that’s understandable. And yet they don’t stop visiting Yasukuni;They have their sons and friends in mind when they visit Yasukuni. Likewise PM in his private capacity has a right to visit Yasukuni. The motivation for the visit should not matter.

    And basically that is the problem of policy and religious belief of Yasukuni shrine. The believers can ask Yasukuni to separate the souls of the superiors, just as christians can ask the Church to enlist or drop some saints.
    But it is not the problem of whether the visit to Yasukuni and Church is permissible:The visit and worship in his/her own way should be permissible. In other words, whether someone visit Yasukuni or not should not be enforced. It is a matter of principle, and the principle should not yield to political pressure.

  13. Aki said

    When PM Koizumi visited Yasukuni last year, he didn’t sign anything on the registry at Yasukuni. He visited there as a completely private citizen. He was wearing common bussiness suits and he donated a coin into the saisen-bako as common visitors do. However, few foreign media reported about it. It seemed that they do not understand freedom of religion for private citizens and that they were just enjoying to make a fuss about Yasukuni.

    Bender,

    Shinto shrines do not necessarily enshrine good people. Even a leader of a rebellion against the Emperor, Taira no Masakado, is enshrined in a big shrine, Kanda Myojin, in Tokyo. I think many of Japanese politicians has visited the shrine, since it is one of the biggest shrine in Tokyo. However, it does not mean that they support the rebellion against the Emperor. One of the purpose of enshrinment in Shinto shrines is to appease spirits of dead people who died unusual death.

  14. Albion said

    Ponta,

    Thanks for all your comments. Basically, you simply took a roundabout route to confirm what I said.

    1. Chinese and Koreans blow the “Yasukuni issue” way out of proportion for their own self-serving reasons,

    2. Many Japanese people have mixed feelings regarding their leaders visiting Yasukuni in an official capacity on prominent days such as the End of the War Memorial Day (Aug. 15).

    You can talk until you are blue in the face about why the PM and other officials “should” be allowed to visit Yasukuni, but all you are doing is engaging in sophistry (herikutsu).

    The fact is that many Japanese are troubled by the “Yasukuni issue.” You aren’t (I get the feeling you are Japanese), but you are only one person. I know many others who are very troubled and upset …. and NOT, by the way, because they are worried about China or Korea.

    So, all we’ve done is confirm another of my main points, which is: 1 and 2 above are not mutually exclusive.

  15. Ken said

    I think Albion has a good point here – both 1 and 2 are certainly factors. One always has to be wary of people who say something is or is not an issue to the average Japanese person (or Japanese voter) without having some kind of data or hard facts to back it up.

  16. ampontan said

    While you’re being wary, read comment #4 again.

  17. ponta said

    Albion
    Thanks.
    which comment is sophistry—I leave the judgement to the reader. (I had Dworkin in mind when I said his right is a trump. I don’t know how Dworkin would argue in this particular case, but the argument of the right as a trump is his. )

    Suppose many Islam and Asian people have a mixed feeling about Christianity, because the religion is used to drive the nation into a devastating war or the colonization. Suppose further someone argue that
    therefore the head of state should not visit the church. Isn’t the argument sophistry?

    I think my point is important and people opposing PM’s visit to Yasukuni often miss it.

    My point is a matter of principle.

    I don’t want somebody including PM to be pressured to visit Yasukuni as when people were forced to do so during WWⅡ. Likewise I don’t want somebody including PM to be pressured not to visit Yasukuni.
    (People are pressured to be refrain from participating in Fǎlún Gōng in China—I don’t like the idea.)People have the right to faith, and it is a trump against political pressure.

    What you are suggesting, it seems to me—correct me if I am wrong—is that since many people have mixed feelings, PM should not visit Yasukuni. Granted you know a lot of Japanese who are troubled by Yasukuni—as I say I admit there are some but at the same time I know a lot of Japanese who are neither troubled by Yasukuni nor concerned about Yasukuni, though—your argument as it is is weak. And my point is that just because some people—many people or majority people have a mixed feelings, one’s right to faith should not be deprived. Visiting Yasukuni in private capacity should be protected.
    And as far as PM’s visit passes the quasi-lemon test, I think his right should be protected.

    Remeber I don’t visit Yasukuni, I don’t give a damn whether PM visits Yasukuni or not because I think it is a matter of his faith.

  18. Albion said

    Ampontan,

    On a national level, Yasukuni is 5th in importance (cf comment 4 above). This means that if we listed up ten of the top issues in Japan today, Yasukuni would be ahead of four of them:

    (in no particular order)
    1. pension fund troubles
    2. dirty money in politics
    3. environmental policy
    4. nuclear power
    5. education reform
    6. the so-called “kakusa shakai” issue
    7. proposed changes to the constitution
    8. low-birth rate and “graying society”
    9. changing the self-defense force to an “army”
    10. farming policies

    There, now according to the survey you refer to in comment 4 above, Yasukuni is ahead of at least four of those.

    You say the number of those who listed Yasukuni was low, but — again — the number of those who would list the four below it would be by definition even lower.

  19. Albion said

    Ponta,

    I’m saying that if the PM chooses to visit Yasukuni, especially on certain days such as August 15, he (or she if the PM is ever a woman) shouldn’t be shocked if there is backlash within Japan.

    And I’m therefore implying that it is a waste of time for bloggers and others to go to great lengths to “prove” that those who are against the PM’s Yasukuni visits are either 1. wrong (with a tinge of “stupid” thrown in to make for a really fun reading experience), or 2. buying into China’s and Korea’s game.

    The PM is perfectly free to do what he wants. Everyone else is perfectly free to criticize the PM if they want to, even if they are in the minority.

    I never claimed that there is overwhelming opposition to the PM’s Yasukuni visits. I only corrected Ampontan’s skewed original post. Ampontan seems to paint the issue in black and white, and anyone who doesn’t see the issue the way he does seems to be the object of implicit or explicit derision. I wanted readers of this blog who do not read Japanese (and cannot therefore see for themselves what is written in the Japanese newspapers) to understand that Ampontan is putting his own ideological filter on this issue.

    Yasukuni is a complex issue in Japan irregardless of “pressure” from China and Korea. If anything, the Chinese and Koreans probably understood that there are mixed feelings in Japan and decided to exploit that. How can I speculate that? Because Yasukuni wasn’t an emotionally complex issue for many Japanese, then people (including the Japanese government) would have simply dismissed the Chinese and Korean statements as hogwash long ago.

    I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. I’m simply laying out the facts. Some of which seem to have been conveniently omitted.

  20. ampontan said

    Albion, you’re not getting it, but then, you don’t really want to, do you? It was #5 in the election issues THAT YEAR. It was likely that high only because people were concerned about economic relations with those countries.

    Some of the issues you list, such as farming policies and proposed changes to the Constitution, weren’t even on the national radar in 2005.

    The low birth rate and graying of society aren’t political issues from the perspective of the general public. I don’t see a whole lot of private sector activity trying to stimulate the birth rate.

    Disagree if you like, but the fact remains that Yasukuni is not a factor in Japanese elections. Exercise your reading comprehension skills instead of your imagination and you’ll discover that is all that I said.

  21. Albion said

    Having said all that, however, I would like to point out that Ampontan did make the following statement, which I agree with wholeheartedly, in his original post:

    “Most didn’t manage to find the space to talk about something just as important in today’s Japan–the 260 counter demonstrators who showed up to demand that Japan retain its pacifist principles and Constitution. That doesn’t mesh with the story the media wants to tell. As a result, the stories seen around the world strangely resemble paper dolls—a large sheet of paper with holes cut out in certain places to create the desired image.”

  22. Albion said

    Ampontan, Ampontan, Ampontan,

    And there I was giving you credit.

    Yasukuni may not be a major factor in elections (I already granted that point), but it is an issue in the public’s mind. It simply isn’t a litmus test issue. And rightly so.

    You state in your original post:

    “He also wasn’t about to court additional controversy, even though any controversy that would occur would largely occur outside of Japan.”

    I disagree. The “loudest” controversy would come from abroad, but it would not be the ONLY controversy. I have given you the reasons why above.

    Regarding the 2005 election: yes, some of the issues I listed above were not issues then. So, list ten of the top issues from 2005 and you’ll get the same result. You aren’t getting it, but then you don’t really want to, do you?

    Finally, your definition of being a “political issue from the perspective of the general public” is that there must be public sector action on the issue??? If businesses aren’t doing something then it’s not an issue???

    From the perspective of the part of the general public that is working parents, the availability of quality child care, tax breaks or cash payments from the government to help offset some of the costs of raising a child are HUGE issues. The availability of these kinds of support determines for many people whether or not they have a second or third child. Or any children at all for that matter.

    Affordable health care for the elderly is likewise a huge issue for … ahem, the elderly, as well as those who have elderly parents or grandparents in need of consistent care.

    You really think that if business (private sector) isn’t moving on an issue (which itself is debatable), it isn’t a political issue from the perspective of the general public?

    You must, because NPOs and NGOs in Japan (part of the private sector) are indeed moving on child and elderly care issues.

    Maybe it’s YOU who should be working on those reading skills by picking up the Japanese language daily newspaper and seeing what’s going on around you here in Japan.

    But that’s it; I throw my hands up in disgust and hope you have a nice day.

  23. ampontan said

    “From the perspective of the part of the general public that is working parents, the availability of quality child care, tax breaks or cash payments from the government to help offset some of the costs of raising a child are HUGE issues. The availability of these kinds of support determines for many people whether or not they have a second or third child. Or any children at all for that matter.”

    The plummeting birth rates throughout Europe, and in Russia, South Korea, and China, in addition to Japan, all below replacement levels, leads me to believe that the absence of government subsidies is not a significant factor.

  24. Albion said

    You really really really don’t want to get it.

    Go to this article (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%91%E5%AD%90%E5%8C%96#.E6.AC.A7.E7.B1.B3.E3.81.AE.E5.B0.91.E5.AD.90.E5.8C.96.E3.81.AE.E7.8A.B6.E6.B3.81)

    and read about France, Germany, Italy and Holland. All these countries have implemented government programs to support parents (and therefore encourage people to have children), and their birthrates went up, though some more than others. I’m sure you can find similar information in English if you looked.

    Are government benefits the ONLY cause? Probably not, but they represent one effective tool.

    Plus, not all the countries you list have the same kinds of conditions found in Japan. Saying “government benefits in country X don’t work, so they won’t work anywhere” is a weak argument … mainly because it is an ideological argument. It isn’t based on the specific situation in a specific country or region.

    Blanket rejection of an available tool (government financial support, in this case) — especially when there is evidence that they are effective in some cases — is a clear sign of ideological filters at work.

    But really now, have a nice day.

  25. Albion said

    Link doesn’t seem to be working. It’s the 少子化 article in the Japanese language Wikipedia.

  26. ampontan said

    “France, Germany, Italy and Holland. All these countries have implemented government programs to support parents (and therefore encourage people to have children), and their birthrates went up, though some more than others. I’m sure you can find similar information in English if you looked.”

    None of them over replacement level, and of course, as Muslim immigration continues to those counties, it is hard to prove a causal connection.

  27. Albion said

    Actually, Sweden (a country whose largest immigrant group is Finns, though there are Ethiopians and Iraqis, et al of late) has also implemented government financial and other aid programs for parents with excellent results.

    We are splitting hairs here. It is an available tool, it is a political issue irregardless of whether business is acting (they are, but that is a different issue).

    The main point is that your ideological filter is pretty clear at this point.

    I am casting a broad net out in society, trying to take into account the real life situations and attitudes of the largest possible range of people. You are discounting broad swaths of people and their ways of thinking because they don’t jibe with your ideology.

    That is apparently true of you whether we are talking about Yasukuni or government aid programs to parents.

  28. ampontan said

    Of late? There must have been one heck of a mad dash into Malmo, whose Muslim population has been estimated at anywhere from 25% (Fox) to 30% (Washington Post) to 40%, but is hard to pinpoint because the Swedes aren’t supposed to keep those stats.

    That’s not to mention the Swedish Cabinet minister who called on fellow citizens to treat the Muslim immigrants nicely, because they in turn would treat the native Swedes nicely after the Muslims came into the majority.

    Unless, of course, there’s an influx of Finns in the meantime.

  29. Albion said

    Actually, yes: it is a recent phenomenon. Read about it.

    There is anti-Muslim sentiment in Sweden as a result, and the government is worried about it.

    Still, you are — willfully? — missing the point.

    But that’s OK. Really, it is.

  30. ponta said

    Albion
    I agree that “Yasukuni is a complex issue in Japan irregardless of “pressure” from China and Korea.”
    There are several books published in just a few years.
    (At first it was the problem of the separation of religion and politics;And that was where the lemon test came in)
    But I also agree that “most people just don’t care” about it.

  31. Ken said

    While you’re being wary, read comment #4 again.

    And from comment #4:

    When the uproar over Koizumi’s visits was at its highest, and he called the snap election of the Diet, it only ranked 5th in issues of interest, and the numbers who thought it was important were quite low.

    According to whom? I’m very wary when no sources or proof are given. The statement in comment #4 is meaningless. I could make up the same statement and say it ranked 7th in issues of interest – but according to what source?

    Anyway, I wasn’t actually referring to that point in my comment to Albion…

  32. Paul said

    That kakusa-shakai stuff sounds like a bunch of socialist whining that people have to actually earn their jobs and income now.

    Oh, and Albion, Ampontan is right that the increase in birthrates in Europe is due to Muslim immigrants. I also can’t imagine why you’d cite stagnant and miserable welfare states like France, Germany, Italy, Holland, and Sweden as examples worthy of emulation.

  33. ampontan said

    1. Cited from Japanese media sources at the time. The Japanese media seldom keeps their articles on line for very long, and I have better things to do with my time than to look for indirect references. Whom you choose to believe is your problem.

    Or, here’s a thought–instead of carping, prove me wrong.

    2. Just this once, here are some poll results in English. Perhaps I exaggerated the issue’s importance. Of the 10 specifically cited categories, Yasukuni didn’t even show up.

    Election post mortem

    Maybe it falls in the category of “other”, all of 3.1%.

    Also of interest, only 7.5% stated “Education or Aging”. Wonder what the percentage for aging would be on its own. So much for the greying of society being a big issue.

  34. bender said

    Looks like the discussion is going astray.

    I personally think the recent Japanese conservative opinion regarding Yasukuni is forgetting that Japan’s constitution embraces the “establishment clause” (separation of church and state) and that Yasukuni is not your ordinary shinto shrine. It was the center of Kokka-shinto, which the Japanese military used to take control of the Japanese nation and led the people to the utter destruction of the country that is WWII. Why do you think Kokka-shinto was abolished and Yasukuni was separated from the Japanese state after the war? Of course there is disagreement among the Japanese about who should be enshrined there. And can an acting PM visit Yasukuni in his “personal” capacity? Going to a shinto shrine on January 1 is very different from going to Yasukuni. If one equates this with “religious freedom”, he\she’s not getting the whole picture right. Even sound like some US conservatives who don’t even get what the “establishment clause” is about.

    Not that I agree with ultranationalist Chinese and Koreans who no doubt use the Yasukuni issue to paint Japan as being some evil force.

  35. Paul said

    Besides, the governments of those countries are only pushing for higher birthrates to extend the lifespan of their pyramid-scheme welfare systems.

    Albion, its laughable that you claim to rely on facts and reason while Ampontan is driven by ideology. In reality, it’s obvious that you’re driven by a socialist and statist ideology.

  36. bb said

    Ampotan,
    Having lived in Japan for 4 years, and studied the country for even longer, your analysis rings dead true. I was happy to finally see someone say it like it is on Yasukuni and the media coverage of it. Good work.

  37. Albion said

    Let the battle of the polls begin:

    “An opinion poll conducted by Jiji Press LTD shows that the most pressing issues that need resolution and improvement are social security system reform—including action on pension plans—and Medicare. 68.8 percent of the public identified these issues as their priority.[4] The issue of Japan Post privatization ranked twelfth out of sixteen issues, and was identified by only 6.7 percent of people as the number one priority. Regardless of public opinion, however, Mr. Koizumi insisted that the privatization of Japan Post be his political mission, and the September election was entirely centered around this contentious issue.”

    4. “Yubinkyoku no Mineika ni Kansuru Yoronchousa ni Tsuite,” Jiji Tsushin (Jiji Press LTD) opinion poll on Japan Post Privatization conducted in February 2005, published on March 21, 2005.

    http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/2005/Nov/wakugawaNov05.asp

    You pick your data, I’ll pick mine. I’m sure you’ll have some pithy quip about why Jiji press polls are garbage and Paul will chime in with non sequitor comments about socialism.

    I never claimed that Yasukuni was a top issue, nor did I claim that aging was a “top issue.” I simply pointed out (if you re-read my posts, you will see this) that to some segments of the population (eg, care for the elderly is a prime concern for the elderly in need of care and their families), these are important issues. They are off your radar because they don’t make or break elections.

    Bb: Having lived in Japan for my entire post-university adult life (31 years), it’s pretty obvious that Ampotan’s analysis is biased at times.

  38. ampontan said

    “Let the battle of the polls begin”

    That will have to be done on some other site. The point has been made about Yasukuni and upheld.

    Don’t know where Jiji’s polls fall, but as I quoted some hyoronka the other day, there’s usually a 10-point gap between Asahi and Yomiuri, for example.

    I note with interest that the woman who wrote that piece, who called the Japanese electorate immature (compared to whom?)received her Master’s degree in “nuclear non-proliferation”. I certainly hope she’s putting her education to use in Teheran and Pyeongyang right about now.

  39. Albion said

    I note with interest that, as I thought, you managed to get in a cheap shot (the person who cited the poll has no relation to the data expressed in the poll itself).

    Plus, now you question the very concept of polling. So, if a poll upholds your pre-conceived notion, it’s a good poll to cite, but if a different poll shows different data, you go the route of questioning the validity of polls in general. Interesting.

  40. ampontan said

    The previous comment was deleted because it was off-topic. Objections to the deletion will be deleted for being off-topic. Live it or live with it.

    Or, put it on your own website.

  41. Durf said

    One thing I will never understand about Yasukuni-goers is how they invariably talk about “honoring the people enshrined here because today’s Japan was built on their sacrifice.” It makes no sense. These are the spirits of those unfortunate to get killed, not the ones who survived and built the modern Japan on the ashes of the dead order.

    To paraphrase General Patton’s (possibly apocryphal) comment, you don’t build a nation by dying for your country, you do it by making the other son of a bitch die for his, and then going home and, um, building your nation. All right. That didn’t work well. But this view of war dead as people who somehow did something positive for Japan by dying confounds me.

  42. ponta said

    A victim as a hero might be a Japanese myth.
    But I think that is the way Japanese give the meaning to their death:they didn’t die for nothing, they died for the country’s subsistence, and because they contributed to the country by sacrificing their lives, the country survived.
    And according to shinto, by honoring them, their sufferings of unhappy death are supposed to be purified(sumu) and the souls are somehow not far from here, helping, protecting Japan as long as we pacify and honor, the war-deads. If people do not
    pacify them, they feel their business and obligation to them is not finished(sumanai).

    That is my interpretation, but I might be wrong.

  43. tomojiro said

    “But I think that is the way Japanese give the meaning to their death:they didn’t die for nothing, they died for the country’s subsistence, and because they contributed to the country by sacrificing their lives, the country survived.”

    I am interested. How much of this is realy “Japanese” and “traditional”.
    Readings in ethnologies or religious studies makes me more doubtful.

    The problem of Yasukuni seems to me rather a pure political problem which both side (who critisize or support Yasukuni) are very well aware.

    I second with Durfs impression. This explanation,“honoring the people enshrined here because today’s Japan was built on their sacrifice.” , was always to me rather an excues which sounds like “that is our tradition, don’t question it and shut up”.

  44. ponta said

    Readings in ethnology or religious studies makes me more doubtful.

    Well I hope the followings help to understand what I
    said.

    One point that I hoped to emphasize in this book was the view about life after death of the Japanese people. After death the soul remains eternally upon this land(Yanagida, Kunio)

    The ancestral Kami were celebrated upon this land for celebration by their descendants would bring the greatest joy to the _mitama_ of these Kami who protected the livelihood and prosperity of their descendants. It is said that this belief has been transmitted to us from antiquity and it will continue to be conveyed unchanged to future generations.

    After death the soul remains eternally upon this land. It is believed that the soul does not travel to a distant land. This faith has endured strongly. It was continuously practiced from the beginning of time until the present day.

    http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/index.html

    All individuals who die become kami. People who have died peacefully and happily amid their family are the revered ancestors but not everyone dies this way. Those who die without family to care for their kami become hungry ghosts (an idea imported from China) who wander and can cause trouble. A person who died violently or who led an unhappy life can be a source of danger or trouble to others. Things are done to ease these spirits. Sometimes flowers will be left at a place where someone died in a car accident or of a heart attack. Or small stones will be piled up to indicate a place where the sacred space touches on everyday space.

    Sometimes there will be a fire burning and people will waft the smoke over their heads. The most important value in Shinto is cleanliness both physical and spiritual and pollution, which is mainly identified with blood and death, must be avoided as much as possible but can be erased through elaborate ritual.”
    “Besides seeking blessings, the rituals also are to pacify those gods, seen as fearful or able to cause damage such as Hachiman, the God of War

    cla.calpoly.edu/~bmori/syll/Hum310japan/Shinto.html

    revere the kami, respect one’s ancestors.

    One of the fundamental ideas in Shintô. It is based on the belief that the ancestral spirits become the kami that provide protection for descendants and the family with the performance of Shintô ceremonies. This is an integration of reverence for kami and ancestor worship. It has been emphasized by Kokugaku scholars.

    www2.kokugakuin.ac.jp/ijcc/wp/glossary/def_K.html

    Frankly I find it harder to understand Jesus was

    crucified for us, for me and resurrected later and is living in some of the believers and they are grateful.

    After all I was born and grew up in ghostly Japan.
    http://www.trussel.com/hearn/byhearn.htm#T95
    I am much more familar with the practice of pacifying the soul. Even dolls have souls to be pacified;you can’t just throw them away without pacifying them.

  45. tomojiro said

    Well, Yanagida Kunio was quite critical against Yasukuni and “Jinja Shinto” before the war. He said that it was “traditional” for the Japanese to mourn the dead in their house and family grave. His critics was that Yasukuni somewhat tries to artificially enclose the dead in their shrine separating them from their home.

    Yanagida was also critical against “Jinja” Shinto, thus he called (in his view) the more “authentic” religious practice “Koyu Shinko”. He was critical against “Shinto” (which was created during the Meiji era) that it neglected the “traditional” “native” practice and beliefs.

    So what is really “traditional” about Yasukuni? Building a shrine for deceased soldiers who fought for the Emperor is a modern invention.

    As you maybe know, until the Edo era, there was no pure “Shinto” (the word itself was appropriated during the Meiji era to describe the “traditional” religion).

    The problems surrounding yasukuni is purely political in my opinion (A war criminals), but both the left side and the right side just use the world “religion” (or “tradition”) to attack or excuse Yasukuni which makes this problem more confused and complicated.

  46. ampontan said

    “As you maybe know, until the Edo era, there was no pure “Shinto” (the word itself was appropriated during the Meiji era to describe the “traditional” religion).”

    This is interesting about the word. What was it called before that? They had to make a distinction somehow. Some institutions were both Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines before that.

  47. tomojiro said

    Ampontan

    I have the relevant book back home, but according to Isomae Jun’ichi, a historian of Japanese religion, there were several words like “Kami no Oshie”,”Kami no michi” “Kannagara no Oshie” or simpy “Oshie” for what would be considered now as Shinto. The problem is that what we now recognize as Shinto was from the beginning “syncretic” with Buddhism. Anthroplogists even say that the word “syncretism” is wrong in case of Japanese “religions”, because the Shinto-Buddhist mix was rather natural.

    During the late Edo era, influenced by “Koku-gaku( native studies)”, some movements occurred in several “Han (clan)” to separate Buddhism (because of their Indian-Chinese origin) and what was believed as beliefs native to Japan.

    But in the Edo era, that was confined to just several Han.

    It was in the Meiji era that the new government tried to separate Buddhism and to create an authentic Japanese “religion” which could support the emperorship, which came to be know as “Shinto”. Simultaneously, the concept of “religion” was introduced to Japan and translated as “Shukyo”.

    Of course, the attempt of the Meiji government failed as we know, so Shinto was explained as a “National moral (国民道徳)”, rather than “religion (宗教)” like Buddhism(仏教) or Christianity (キリスト教)and other religions which are described with the letter 教.

    There is a very interesting discussion at ejcjs between Timothy Fitzgerald and Ian Reader both experts about Japanese religion.
    http://www.japanesestudies.org.uk/discussionpapers/Fitzgerald3.html

    It is very difficult to discuss about religion and thus Yasukuni in Japan (and other non-western societies ), because the concepts like “religion” or “separation between the church and state” is so much a western concept.

  48. ponta said

    Tomojiro
    I am afraid you are creating your own problem and answering your own problem.

    The problem is how to understand the statement that
    “today’s Japan was built on their sacrifice.”
    My answer is that that is the way Japanese give the meaning to their death and because of their sacrifice, the country survived. It is understandable they are grateful for them just as I am grateful for my deceased father who worked hard for me;What I am today is built upon his hard working and sacrifice for me. And this kind of belief is backed up with Japanese shinto way of seeing things. I cited a site from yasukuni and sites explaining shinto .
    The deads are somewhere around here. The dead should be pacified. The deads protect us.
    This is very familiar sentiment to me.
    I sometimes talk to the deceased father. With beer he used to love, “Hi, dad, I am sorry I couldn’t live up to your expectation. You had been kind, you had worked hard for me. You’ve made me what I am. I am grateful” And when I am in trouble, I’ll ask my deceased father to help me.

    In the same way, it is understandable that the survivor who promised to meet at Yasukuni visit yasukuni to talk to the war dead. (If my father promised my to meet at Yasukuni after his death, I will definitely visit there no matter what, whether A criminals are enshrined or not.)
    In the same sense, it is also understandable that someone wants to visit yasukuni to pay respect to the war deads.

    Your answer to the problem is that Yanagida was against jinja, and Yasukuni.—That is not helpful to understand the statement above.
    And your second answer is that the statement above is an excuse telling not to interfere because it is tradition—-so far nobody has claimed that on this blog;you create your own opponent and you answer it. Granted your guess is right, still it does not explain how to understand the statement above;in other words,granted it was used as an excuse, for the statement to function as an excuse, you presuppose the understanding of the statement:yet, you haven’t explained how to understand it.

    Now the problem, I think, is more complex than you think.
    Legally, the supreme court has ruled that as long as PM’s visit passes the quasi-lemon test, it does not violate the principle of the separation of the state and the religion.
    In view of the freedom to faith, people have the right to pray in peaceful and quiet atmosphere.
    I think it is insult to attack the prayer by speculating their motivation, and it is dangerous to try to prohibit some-one’s faith by speculating the motivation.

    Shinto believers have right to ask Yasukuni to separate the souls of A-criminal, but that is the internal problem that should be left to the organization.

    Politically, it is the most tough question, but basically, to me, the question is which society do you like better, the one in which people in private capacity have right to visit shrine/temple/church to pray in quiet and peaceful atmosphere where nobody intervene, or the one in which people are pressured, by the media, by other countries, to visit or not to visit the shrine/temple/church.
    Put differently, do you like the society where, say, a person is prohibited from visiting the museum, the cemetery, the church where Mao, Syngman Rhee MacArther,Dudley Walker Morton are honored among other people.
    Do you like the society where people are politically pressured not to practice a specific religion such as Fǎlún Gōng because some people find it offensive?
    Do you like the society where the right winger pressuer the private publishing company not to publish a book on the emperor because
    there is some part offensive to them in the book?
    Do you like the society where the left winger and some faction of conservative pressure a private person not to visit church/temple/shrine because there is a part offensive to them about it?

    I prefer to a society where people enjoy a private life, people enjoy the freedom to faith, freedom to publish without political pressure. Hard-pornography might be offensive to some people, but as long as people enjoy it in private, they should be allowed to enjoy it in quite and peaceful atmosphere:though people have right to say they are against it.

    The issue is complex, but at the same time, I think people in general do not care. Let’s take the last election.
    http://www.google.co.jp/search?q=%E5%8F%82%E9%99%A2%E9%81%B8%E3%80%80%E4%BA%89%E7%82%B9%E3%80%80%E8%AA%BF%E6%9F%BB&lr=lang_ja&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:ja:official&client=firefox
    Abe didn’t say he would not visit Yasukuni. He just said he would not publicize whether he would visit or not, whether he had visited or not.
    The souls of A criminals are still enshrined. The problem was out there as ever.
    But the issue is not even on the list for the point of disputes in the election.

    Why? —my guess is, ultimately because China was not making fuss about it .

  49. tomojiro said

    “I am afraid you are creating your own problem and answering your own problem.”

    Thanks for your concern but I am afraid that I am not.

    “My answer is that that is the way Japanese give the meaning to their death and because of their sacrifice, the country survived.”

    Exactly what I was asking for. IS Yasukuni and the belief surrounding Yasukuni really “the Japanese way”, a tradition which you want to posit or rather a modern creation with certain political purpose? IS this really something that can be connected to a “tradition” which you can trace in history if you want or IS it rather a modern creation with the political purpose to establish a modern nation-state?

    I questioned the concept of “religion” and “Shinto”. These questions must be asked if you want to answer what is Yasukuni and the purpose and motive to going to Yasukuni.

    The meaning of the death of your father and the meaning of the death that are enshrined at Yasukuni is quite different.

    DID really their sacrifice created modern Japan? Construction workers who died by accident during the construction of, say, some construction site related to Tokyo Olympic games or maybe Banpaku at Osaka, I wouldn’t have any difficulties if someone want to give them meanings to their death saying “their sacrifice built contemporary Japan”, but soldier who fought for the Great Japanese Empire (大日本帝国)and the Emperor, did their sacrifice contributed really to the creation of contemporary Japan or was their death just in vain? Wasn’t it because they fought for an empire which vanished as a result of their death that contemporary Japan exists?

    “Now the problem, I think, is more complex than you think.
    Legally, the supreme court has ruled that as long as PM’s visit passes the quasi-lemon test, it does not violate the principle of the separation of the state and the religion.
    In view of the freedom to faith, people have the right to pray in peaceful and quiet atmosphere.
    I think it is insult to attack the prayer by speculating their motivation, and it is dangerous to try to prohibit some-one’s faith by speculating the motivation.”
    Well as I wrote before, I am skeptical about the so called concept of “separation of the church and the state”. And as I wrote before, it is not really a “religious” problem.It is just a problem whether do you think it is right to enshrine the A class war criminals.
    Nothing more, nothing less.

  50. bender said

    Ponta:

    Legally, the supreme court has ruled that as long as PM’s visit passes the quasi-lemon test, it does not violate the principle of the separation of the state and the religion.

    This is only telling half of the story. Has the Supreme Court of Japan ever ruled that public officials could visit the shrine (i.e., has the Supreme Court ever ruled that they pass the test)? The answer is actually no. There is no case law regarding PM visits because there is no statute that allows the people to bring the issue into court (they lack standing). However, under the Chiho-Jichi-ho, residents of a prefecture/township are allowed to bring suit against the governor or other public officials of the regional government. Here, I’ve never seen any recent case which the officials prevailed.

    I think you’re being quite bold to proclaim there is no constitutional issue regarding visits to the shrine by public officials.

    Tomojiro:

    I am skeptical about the so called concept of “separation of the church and the state”.

    Well, it’s written in the Japanese constitution. Why are you skeptical? Historically, religious intolerance has been used many times in various countries to oppress their subject people. Do you think the Japanese Empire was an exception to this? This principal is one of the key aspects of a modern democracy. A country that doesn’t get this right seems sort of “backwardy”. I notice that some Americans don’t seem to get the grasp of this, because they don’t seem to be able to imagine that, in the world, there are faiths other than Christianity.

    The issue whether war leaders should be enshrined is an issue by itself, independent from the issue of state/religion separation. The separation issue is also big, because this is the only issue that is litigable. This I understand is one of the reasons why the Yomiuri is against PM visits to the Yasukuni shrine.

  51. ponta said

    Tomojiro
    Thanks.

    Exactly what I was asking for

    So after all, you are not answering but you are just asking your own question and answering it by yourself.

    DID really their sacrifice created modern Japan?

    Was Jesus really crucified for us, for you and for me?
    Jusus was killed. In a way that is all there is to it, but a christian gave the meaning to Jesus’s death and accordingly she think yes to the question, non-Christians are think no, or they don’t care. But a christian has a right to have a faith in it.

    Bender
    Thanks.
    You are right about the comlex situations about
    the suit on constitutionality concerning the separation of the state and the religion.

    I think you’re being quite bold to proclaim there is no constitutional issue regarding visits to the shrine by public officials.

    That is not my claim. There is a consititutional issue, that is why the issue is complex.
    My claims are (1)PM has the right to visit the shrine/church/temple as long as he/she passes the quasi-lemon test and (2)PM in private capacity has the right to faith–thus the right to visit the shrine/temple/church.
    (1) in order not to violate the article 21 (3)
    (2) is guaranteed by the article 21 (1)

    And regardless of the complexity as to the suit concerned, the relevant norm and definition set by the court seems clear.
    (a)

    超自然的・超人間的本質の存在を確信し、畏敬崇拝する信条と行為

    (b)

    「行為の目的が宗教的意義をもち、その効果が宗教に対する援助、助長、促進又は圧迫、干渉等になる」か否か

    My claim is that Yasukuni is a private religious
    organization. And as far as PM’s visit satisfies (b), it is not unconstitutional, and his personal visit is constitutionally guaranteed.

  52. ampontan said

    The Shinzo Abe book has this:

    “The Supreme Court stated in its verdict in the Tsujichinsai (The Shinto Ground Purification Ceremony in Tsu) case in 1977, “If the purpose of a ceremony is in accordance with social customs, that ceremony is not regarded as a religious activity.” In other words, they ruled that ceremonies of this type are constitutional. Since then, it has been admissible to interpret the shrine visits themselves as constitutional. Several lawsuits have been instituted over the years seeking damages from the country for visits by the prime minister to the shrine, but every case ended in defeat for the plaintiff.”

  53. tomojiro said

    Please Ponta, It was me who was asking a question. Don’t use tricks and try to avoid to answer my question.
    a) IS Yasukuni and the belief surrounding Yasukuni really “the Japanese way”, a tradition which can be traced to history? If so why?

    b) DID really their sacrifice created modern Japan? How do you explain it? I am interested about your personal opinion.

    “Was Jesus really crucified for us, for you and for me?”
    Leave this explanation to the christians. I am asking how you explain the death of the people who are enshrined in Yasukuni?

    And

    c) WHAT do you think about the war criminals who are enshrined there? DO YOU REALLY think that they are also the victims of the war? If so why?

    “A victim as a hero might be a Japanese myth.
    But I think that is the way Japanese give the meaning to their death:they didn’t die for nothing, they died for the country’s subsistence, and because they contributed to the country by sacrificing their lives, the country survived.”
    That was your answer to Durf.

    d) Do you think that the war criminals are also a hero? If so why?

    e) Did they really die for nothing? Why?

    f) Did they really contributed to the country or did they just die for vain?

    What do you think?

  54. tomojiro said

    Sorry my english sucks.

    e) Did they really didn’t die for nothing, if so why?

    Thanks in advance.

  55. ponta said

    Tomojiro
    Thanks

    Please Ponta, It was me who was asking a question. Don’t use tricks and try to avoid to answer my question.

    It was me who was answering the question Durf was asking. I answered. You didn’t. There is no trick
    It is Japanese who say “today’s Japan was built on their sacrifice”
    It is Japanese who gave the meaning to the death; just as I gave the meaning to my father’s death as contributing to what I am today, just as you gave the meaning to the death of construction workers as contributing to the building as it is, it is understandable Japanese gave the meaning to the war dead as having laid the foundation of Japan as it is today. And it was not unusual way when we compare it with how Christian gave the meaning to the death of Jesus.

    Now the trick is you ask new questions.

    a) IS Yasukuni and the belief surrounding Yasukuni really “the Japanese way”, a tradition which can be traced to history? If so why?

    What I claimed, backed up with the sites I linked, is that;
    according to Shinto, the deads are around here on this land. Japanese worship it so that it won’t curse
    you. When you properly pacify them, they will protect
    the people. And I further claimed that it is understandable that people visit Yasukuni to talk to the war-deads, when the war deads promised to meet at Yasukuni. That exemplifies the way I described Japanese give the meaning to the death.

    Now if you are talking about Yasukuni as a state religion during WWⅡ, that is another story:it might
    be true that some people abused pre-existing Japanese
    religious belief.

    .

    b) DID really their sacrifice created modern Japan? How do you explain it? I am interested about your personal opinion.

    “Was Jesus really crucified for us, for you and for me?”
    Leave this explanation to the Christians.

    Leave your question to the Shinto believers. That is what I am saying .
    Your asking my personal opinion is another new question.
    My personal opinion is that some soldiers died in the
    belief that their suicidal death would delay the attack on the mainland by the enemy, making it possible that the people they love on the mainland will live longer:that spirit impressed the Japanese survivors after the war. Repeating the spirit, and in order not to make their death meaningless, some people worked hard to reconstruct Japan from the ashes.
    Were all the Japanese soldiers die in the noble spirit like that? I say no. But again keep in mind that the point is how people give the meaning to the death of people they loved;people want to believe the death of the person they love has some meaning for them.

    c) WHAT do you think about the war criminals who are enshrined there? DO YOU REALLY think that they are also the victims of the war? If so why?

    This is still another new question.
    Ask shinto believers. Even among them there are debates.
    What I can say is this;At the least, they are responsible for the massacre of civilians just as Mao,Syngman Rhee, Truman, MacArther,Dudley Walker Morton etc were responsible for the death of civilians and pows.

    ……..

    My basic stance is simple.There is no secret nor trick.
    If there are people who wants to pay respect to the war deads based on their religious belief. Then respect the freedom to the faith.
    PM or not, as long as the visit does not violate the
    constitution, respect their right guaranteed by the constitution.

  56. tomojiro said

    “My basic stance is simple.There is no secret nor trick.
    If there are people who wants to pay respect to the war deads based on their religious belief. Then respect the freedom to the faith.”

    So don’t question whether war criminals are enshrined or not, isn’t it?

    “What I claimed, backed up with the sites I linked, is that;
    according to Shinto, the deads are around here on this land. Japanese worship it so that it won’t curse
    you. When you properly pacify them, they will protect
    the people. And I further claimed that it is understandable that people visit Yasukuni to talk to the war-deads, when the war deads promised to meet at Yasukuni. That exemplifies the way I described Japanese give the meaning to the death.”

    Yeah, that is what the state told them during the war. I was asking whether you think that it was right, but you won’t answer it.

    You know, one problem is actually can what is told about Yasukuni, the belief surronding Yasukuni, described as “traditional” “authentic” thus as you stated before, as “Japanese” and excused as a proper religious practice, or is it not?

    The other question is, of course, about the war criminals.

    I really think that there a lot of questions which should be asked before just saying “that is the Japanese way”, “the Japanese gave meaning to that”.

    It is a complicated question. To explain it and thus justfiying it as “Japanese” or “traditional”, or because it is a “religion” is just not enough.

  57. ponta said

    Tomojiro
    Thanks.

    ponta

    I am afraid you are creating your own problem and answering your own problem.

    tomojiro

    Thanks for your concern but I am afraid that I am not.

    Please Ponta, It was me who was asking a question.

    Now what is your new question?

    So don’t question whether war criminals are enshrined or not, isn’t it?

    When did I say that?
    First it is obvious that the war criminals are enshrined.
    Second I said repeatedly that there are debates over whether they should be enshrined even among Shinto believers. My opinion is the problem should be left to them. People visit Yasukuni to pray for the war deads. I don’t think they have the thought that wow they massacred people , that was great when they pray. I think they just pray for the war deads who they believe died for the country.

    Keep in mind nobody is forcing you, tomojiro, to honor them. Nobody is forcing you to visit Yasukuni.

    Yeah, that is what the state told them during the war. I was asking whether you think that it was right, but you won’t answer it.

    No you were just saying that Yanagida was against Yasukuni, against even shrine and you sencond Durf— whatever that may mean.

    Now the problem is not it is right, because it is religious belief. During the war, the religions belief was forced :that was wrong. But now you don’t have to believe their story just as you don’t have to
    believe Bible. And the freedom to faith should be respected.

    You know, one problem is actually can what is told about Yasukuni, the belief surrounding Yasukuni, described as “traditional” “authentic” thus as you stated before, as “Japanese” and excused as a proper religious practice, or is it not?

    As I said, no body on this blog claimed that since Yasukuni is traditional, authentic, it should be protected. You did.
    And when I say “Japanese”, it simply means:those who believe people enshrined at Yasukuni were killed for the country and thus laid the foundation for Japan today are Japanese.

    I really think that there a lot of questions which should be asked before just saying “that is the Japanese way”, “the Japanese gave meaning to that”.

    Your thought that there should be questions to be asked is okay:That is your problem. But what was the point in the discussion ? Did you just want to learn from me? Or just chat with me?
    Who said the war deads laid the foundation for Japan today—Japanese. Who gave the war dead the meaning the way they did—Japanese.
    So far if you want to refute them, you need to aruge that they are not Japanese.

    My guess is that you just wanted to say was shinto as a state religion during the war deviated from the shinto tradition.No?

    To explain it and thus justfiying it as “Japanese” or “traditional”, or because it is a “religion” is just not enough.

    Tomojiro, the argument consists of the thesis and reasons.
    To counter argue, you need to represent your opponent’s thesis correctly. I didn’t say since it was Japanese belief, it was justified. You said it.
    I said the freedom to faith should be protected because it is constitutionally guaranteed. and Shinto belief concerning the meaning of the war dead are religious belief.
    Yasukuni is not a state religion. It is no business of non-believers to ask whether the way they gave the meaning is right just as it is none of our business whether Jesus was killed for me, for you. You don’t believe it—Perfect. Leave it to the believers. Don’t interrupt their prayer.That is what I am saying.
    You say the fact that it is religion is not enough.
    I respect your opinion. But you need to give reasons to back up your thesis.

  58. Aceface said

    Can I join in the Tomojiro-Ponta disoute?

    “Yasukuni is not a state religion.”
    “You don’t believe it—Perfect. Leave it to the believers. Don’t interrupt their prayer.That is what I am saying”

    Yasukuni was built as the national shinto institution and symbol of state interference of religious affairs.and it still possess it’s characteristics deeply and those who are honored there were chosen because they died in wars and not for being Shinto believers.
    If you want “freedom of religion” argument,Yasukini is highly unlike choice.It’s like choosing General Tojo as the symbol of Japanese democracy.

    “I respect your opinion. But you need to give reasons to back up your thesis.”
    I’m not Tomojiro,but how about “ten Japanese prime ministers did not go there on August 15 after Nakasone”or “Emperor Showa didn’t go there since class A crew was enshrined”

  59. ponta said

    Aceface
    You are welcome to join the discussion.

    Yasukuni was built as the national shinto institution and symbol of state interference of religious affairs

    That might be true but , it does not follow that

    it still possess it’s characteristics deeply

    You need an argument to prove your point. Have you ever been force to visit Yasukuni? Have you ever been force to honor Tojo?

    those who are honored there were chosen because they died in wars not for being Shinto believers.

    That is why it is sometimes called war shrine and keep in mind shinto worships animals, rocks, samurai who are not shinto believers.

    If you want “freedom of religion” argument, Yasukini is highly unlike choice.

    Are you saying that Yasukuni is not religious organization. Few would agree. To me it is nothing but religion. Because it was religion, there was a problem of the separation of the state and religion. That is why the court banned PM to follow the ritual.

    how about “ten Japanese prime ministers did not go there on August 15 after Nakasone or “Emperor Showa didn’t go there since class A crew was enshrined”

    Perfect—-it is up to them. So ?

  60. Aceface said

    “You need an argument to prove your point. Have you ever been force to visit Yasukuni? Have you ever been force to honor Tojo?”

    I thought I was talking about “CHARACTERISTICS”,No?
    Since I was born in 1970 there was no way that I would be “forced” to visit Yasukuni nor honor Tojo.But as you can see in Yusyukan museum the view of the war that are being presented is not exactly reflect what we believe as”post-war”view.

    “That is why it is sometimes called war shrine and keep in mind shinto worships animals, rocks, samurai who are not shinto believers.”

    But we are not talking about animistic aspect of shinto here,we are talking about very specific
    object of worship,war dead,and to be exact war dead of WW2.

    “Are you saying that Yasukuni is not religious organization. Few would agree.”
    Never said so.Just like I’ve never said Tojo isn’t a politician.I’m saying since these two have similarity and these are not related with freedom of any kind.I think it is hypocratic to associate them with “freedom of blah blah” argument.

    “To me it is nothing but religion”
    And shinto never restrict you to pay pilgrimage to specific shrine to show your conversion to the religious belief.Why Yasukuni,and not Ise?

    “how about “ten Japanese prime ministers did not go there on August 15 after Nakasone or “Emperor Showa didn’t go there since class A crew was enshrined”
    “Perfect—-it is up to them. So ?”

    These could be some reasons to back up the argument that there has been some nation wide consensus that it is OK to go visit Yasukuni to honor the war dead if you are an individual such as yourself but political figures such as prime minister nor emperor should not go there for the political meanings attached to the visits that can be translated as political messages to some.

  61. tomojiro said

    Hello Aceface how was Okinawa? Hot I guess.

    Ponta

    “The problem is how to understand the statement that
    “today’s Japan was built on their sacrifice.”
    My answer is that that is the way Japanese give the meaning to their death and because of their sacrifice, the country survived.”

    That is what you said and I asked you about how you explain this meanings. You avoided the answer and just said “the Japanese said, the Japanese said”.

    Well as you am a Japanese like me, I am interested how you personally explain this, but all what you are saying is “that is the Japanese way,etc”.

    You even mentioned Jesus Christ (!!), but you don’t ask how you explain the meanings.

    All you are saying is that is the Japanese way, that is Japanese religion.

    I am not asking new questions, I am just asking the same question again and again.
    Is the Yasukuni belief really what you can call a Japanese religion, a tradition (the Japanese way in your own words) ?

    Or as I am asking to you is it rather a political invention? What do you think?

    “Did you just want to learn from me?”

    Maybe yes, you are so convinced that it is “tradition” and “religion” so I am interested. If you can convince me, then I learn new things.

    “Or just chat with me?”

    Eh, no.

    “As I said, no body on this blog claimed that since Yasukuni is traditional, authentic, it should be protected. You did.”

    Hey I never said that Yasukuni is traditional therefore it should be protected. Definitly not.

    “Are you saying that Yasukuni is not religious organization. Few would agree. To me it is nothing but religion. Because it was religion, there was a problem of the separation of the state and religion.”

    Without asking my question you are answering Aceface that this religion. Tautology.

    And I agree with Aceface. It is rather a political problem. Or the death of the soldiers and war criminals are manipulated used for political purpose. For the Chinese,for the Koreans, and for the left wing Japanese, and for the right wingers.

    Religion is just an excuse to attack, defend what Yasukuni represents.

  62. ponta said

    Aceface
    Thanks

    I thought I was talking about “CHARACTERISTICS”

    So you need to show what CHARACTERISTICS” Yasukuni still possess.
    It was one of the CHARACTERISTICS of Yasukuni that the religious belief was forced. And you said you had never been forced. Then what CHARACTERISTICS are you talking about.
    Are you talking just like Onishi that Japan is repeating the old militarism ?

    But as you can see in Yusyukan museum the view of the war that are being presented is not exactly reflect what we believe as”post-war”view.

    I agree;though, it seems it will change the panels.
    But people who visit Yasukuni does not necessarily hold that view. You can be evolutionalist and still a christian.

    But we are not talking about animistic aspect of shinto here, we are talking about very specific
    object of worship, war dead, and to be exact war dead of WW2.

    And you were talking about the war that were chosen not for being Shinto believers. I just pointed out the fact it is not unusual for shinto that they choose the object not for being Shinto believers,

    ’m saying since these two have similarity and these are not related with freedom of any kind. I think it is hypocritic to associate them with “freedom of blah blah” argument.

    Yasukuni is an religion, you admit, but you say it is hypocritic to associate them with freedom of faith.
    I don’t understand your argument here. Could you be more specific?

    shinto never restrict you to pay pilgrimage to specific shrine to show your conversion to the religious belief. Why Yasukuni, and not Ise?

    Ask them. For that matter, why Makkah rather than other places?
    One reason I think is that soldiers promised to meet at Yasukuni not Ise. If you father promised to meet at Yasukuni, but you don’t like the museum, do you go
    to Ise just because Ise is also shinto shrine?

    political figures such as prime minister nor emperor should not go there for the political meanings attached to the visits that can be translated as political messages to some.

    That is all right. As I said, it is up to them;still, it does not change the fact that anybody including PM has a right to faith guaranteed by constitution as long as she/he does not violate the separation of the state and the religion.
    On a side note, my guess is that it is mainly China politicians had in mind when they refrained from visiting Yasukuni. No?

    tomojiro
    Thanks

    That is what you said and I asked you about how you explain this meanings. You avoided the answer

    That is the explanation I gave for the question Durf asked. That is my answer. What you said is that Yanagida is against Yasukuni and even the shrine and that the statement today’s Japan was built on their sacrifice is an excuse and you second Durf.
    Let’s not cheat.

    I am interested how you personally explain this, but all what you are saying is “that is the Japanese way

    Let’s not cheat.
    What I said is that those Japanese gave the death the meaning just as you can give the death of construction workers the meaning that they died for the building.

    I am not asking new questions, I am just asking the same question again and again.
    Is the Yasukuni belief really what you can call a Japanese religion, a tradition (the Japanese way in your own words) ?

    Durf’s question was how you explain the statemetnt that today’s Japan was built on their sacrifice.
    My answer was Japanese gave the meaning in the way I gave the meaning to the deceased father, you gave the
    meaning to the death of construction workers, in the similar way Christian gave the death of Jesus the meaning. And analogy is one of the explanation.
    Your question is “Is the Yasukuni belief really what you can call a Japanese religion”
    It is a different question from Durf’s.thus it is a new question.
    And I even didn’t mention Yasukuni at this time.

    Hey I never said that Yasukuni is traditional therefore it should be protected. Definitely not.

    You never said it, but you implied someone was saying.
    You said

    “To explain it and thus justifying it as “Japanese” or “traditional”, or because it is a “religion” is just not enough.”

    This explanation,“honoring the people enshrined here because today’s Japan was built on their sacrifice.” , was always to me rather an excuse which sounds like “that is our tradition, don’t question it and shut up”.

    Do you remember?

    Without asking my question you are answering Aceface that this religion. Tautology.

    The form of tautology is A is A. My answer is not.
    And my answer is substantiated by citing the people who questioned the constitutionality of PM visiting Yasukuni. All the people concerned, plaintiff, defendant, the court, the media that speaks
    about it presuppose that it is religion. The burden of proof that it is not religion is on you.

    And I agree with Aceface. It is rather a political problem

    Right you’ve said it is purely political.

    The problem of Yasukuni seems to me rather a pure political problem which both side (who criticize or support Yasukuni) are very well aware(comment #43)

    I’ve never denied it also contains political problem.
    My contention–reread my comments—has been that freedom to faith should not be violated against political pressure;when it comes to the fundamental human right such as freedom to faith in private capacity, it is not a matter of policy but it is a matter of principle.
    It can be also arued that your replacing the faith with politics is an “excuse” to violate the freedom of faith;Remeber, Meiji govenment used to say Yasukuni is not religion and politically pressured to worship Yasukuni.
    And now you sound like saying that Yasukuni is not religion and should politically pressure not to worship Yasukuni.

  63. Aceface said

    “So you need to show what CHARACTERISTICS” Yasukuni still possess.It was one of the CHARACTERISTICS of Yasukuni that the religious belief was forced. And you said you had never been forced. Then what CHARACTERISTICS are you talking about.”

    Since Yusyukan is built within the shrine and explaining the origin of the wardead honored there,it is natural to consider the exhibit is part of the shrine,thus can be considered it is representing the characteristics of Yasukuni shrine.

    “Are you talking just like Onishi that Japan is repeating the old militarism ?”

    No.Come on Ponta!You can’t count me out from good old right wing club just like that!

    “it seems it will change the panels.”

    Only in the plastic surgery level.and even that is restricted regarding Americans.Not the very victim of the Japanese invasion which are Chinese et al.I don’t think the change is good enough.
    Besides who needs museum in there in the first place?

    “But people who visit Yasukuni does not necessarily hold that view. You can be evolutionalist and still a christian.”

    Never said a word about people visit there.It is the shrine we are talking about.No?

    “I just pointed out the fact it is not unusual for shinto that they choose the object not for being Shinto believers.”

    And I pointed out that the whole place is not so religious.Since those who are honored were chosen by the Ministry of Navy and Army before ’45 and by Ministry of Health after ’45.The place is very much of national shito shrine than just plain simple shinto shrine.

    “Yasukuni is an religion, you admit, but you say it is hypocritic to associate them with freedom of faith.
    I don’t understand your argument here. Could you be more specific?”

    Yasukuni is a religious organization authorized by Japanese law practicing shinto.That I admit.I don’t think Yasukuni is “a” religion practicing it’s own original version of shinto in anyway.Those who believe in shinto and feel the criticism about Yasukuni can always feel free to go to any shinto shrine in the country to full fill their religious need.That is what I meant.
    But I say again that I’m not against ordinary people going to Yasukuni to do what ever they want to do.I just don’t think it is appropriate place for politician and Emperor to honor the war dead.They “right” must be suspended for the deed of the public that is why they choose to be in public service and in the case of imperial family,they get nation wide respect because their life is devotion to the nation and not to their private life.(although Princess Masako may not be included here)

  64. Aceface said

    They “right”must be suspended×
    Their○

  65. ponta said

    Aceface
    Thanks

    Those who believe in shinto and feel the criticism about Yasukuni can always feel free to go to any shinto shrine in the country to full fill their religious need.

    I agree. Anybody can visit any shrine.
    You don’t like syuukan, that is okay. If that is the case why don’t you attack Syuukan?
    If you don’t like the idea that A criminals were
    enshrined, why don’t you attack Yasukuni, not the people who visit there?

    The point is whether people have right to visit and pay respect to the war deads in a peaceful and quiet atmosphere. 

    You might not believe in the life after death. That is okay.
    You might not believe they died for nothing. That is okay.
    You might think that the war was evil and the soldiers were shit. That is okay.
    You might think that there were cruels bosses even subordinates hate. That is okay.

    Nobody is asking you to visit Yasukuni, to pay tribute to the war-deads.

    I met an old women who said she was thinking of how the woman like her would be enshrined at Yasukuni. She found out the nurse would be enshrined. So she wanted to become a nurse, she said.
    Tens of thousands people died beliveing that they would be enshrined at Yasukuni.
    Probably they happened to be born at the wrong times. Many starved to death, many attacked knowing they would be shot to death.
    After all the crazy game, they are dead. In reality that is all there is to it.

    But there are people who want to talk to them annually at the place where they promised to meet.
    There are people who want to take the death of those people as meaningful to them.
    There are people who want to console the souls of the war-deads by giving their death the meaning at the place the soldeirs believed they would be enshrined.
    That is nothing but religious act.
    As I said, I for one do not visit Yasukuni just because I am lazy.
    But I understand their sentiments, because I know how people feel when they lost someone you love, because I understand the sentiments who want to pay tribute to the deads who died miserably. I want to defend their right.

    I say again that I’m not against ordinary people going to Yasukuni to do what ever they want to do

    Okay, you are not against the ordinary people going there.

    I just don’t think it is appropriate place for politician and Emperor to honor the war dead.They “right” must be suspended for the deed of the public that is why they choose to be in public service and in the case of imperial family,they get nation wide respect because their life is devotion to the nation and not to their private life.

    I think they have private life.
    Some Japanese politicians visit the church to pray. They believe in Christianity, which some feminists attack as sexists. Some even call it a bloody religion.
    http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=ja&client=firefox&rls=org.mozilla:ja:official&hs=kOF&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Bloody+history+of+christianity&spell=1
    Should their right be suspended?
    My view is that as long as politicians does not violate the separation of the religion and the state, he/she has freedom to faith , to visit whatever shrine, temple, church in private capacity in peaceful and quiet atomosphere.
    We can criticise some aspect of Chrisitianity but I think the people’s right to faith in Chritianity in private capacity should be protected.

    I think you need to show that politicians have no private life and that they should refrain from practicing the religious act.

  66. Aceface said

    “You don’t like syuukan, that is okay. If that is the case why don’t you attack Syuukan?”

    As long as the Yasukuni shrine is in charge of managing the Yusyukan and hold responsibility of the exhibit,that can not be done.

    “If you don’t like the idea that A criminals were enshrined, why don’t you attack Yasukuni, not the people who visit there?”

    Since you know that I’m not against ordinary people going to Yasukuni to do what ever they want,your question is already answered and 70% of your comment including above are unnecessary.

    “The point is whether people have right to visit and pay respect to the war deads in a peaceful and quiet atmosphere”

    Well,Like I said nobody is denying that.And one thing.Those who died in a war usually have their own grave back home where family and their friends can always pay respect to their souls and there’s always Chidorigahuchi…..

    “I understand their sentiments, because I know how people feel when they lost someone you love, because I understand the sentiments who want to pay tribute to the deads who died miserably. I want to defend their right.”

    Vicitims who had killed by the hands of those honored at Yasukuni feel the same way too.I think we have more responsibility of minding their feeling which is not to be upseted by pushing our “rights”.

    “My view is that as long as politicians does not violate the separation of the religion and the state, he/she has freedom to faith , to visit whatever shrine, temple, church in private capacity in peaceful and quiet atomosphere.”

    Every where but Yasukuni.Yasukuni was built by the state,managed by the state until 1945.Those who are honored are all dead during state assingment and they are all selected by the government agency.It can not be considered a place where religion and the state is separated completely.That is the reason why I think politician who believe in secularism should stay away from Yasukuni.

    “I think they have private life.”

    It will be very limited and what ever they do in their private life must be tranparent to the public.That is the cost of you are in public service.And I believe paying tribute to war dead is a very public thing.If they want to do it in private manner,just go straight to the grave of the departed or go to Chidorigafuchi.

  67. Aceface said

    Victims×
    Family of the victims○

  68. tomojiro said

    Sorry Ponta in advance for being rude but,,,

    Man, “Friday”, “Focus” and other Shashin-shukanshi must refrain from taking pictures of the PM when he is visiting the Yasukuni Shrine. It seems that it is the same thing as sneaking in to his bedroom and taking pictures when he is with his wife.

    That’s privacy! I am sure that he can sue those cameramen and win the case!

  69. ponta said

    Aceface
    Thanks

    As long as the Yasukuni shrine is in charge of managing the Yusyukan and hold responsibility of the exhibit, that can not be done.

    Come on. You can criticize Syuukan as much as you want. Just as Asahi criticize PM, they can criticize Shyuyukan. You can criticize and influence it.
    Because of the criticism, the Yushyuukan will change the description at the museum. No?

    And what I am saying is your object of the attack is misdirected.

    Victims who had killed by the hands of those honored at Yasukuni feel the same way too.

    That is an noble idea. And I think that is the way regional God turns to be universal God. In other words. People sympathise the suffering on their side, but then began to expand the sympathy to other side.
    That is important.
    But we are talking about the simple and decent wish that people want to practice the prayer for the war-dead, and we are talking about whether their right to do so should be protected.

    I think we have more responsibility of minding their feeling which is not to be upseted by pushing our “rights”.

    We have responsibility for the victims.
    But the solders killed in the war are also victims.
    And the family of victim have no boundless right;they have no right to interfere with the prayer for the war-deads. Do the people of the world, Vietnam, Korea, etc. who had a fight the U.S. engaged have the right to stop American people to pray at Alington? —I don’t think so.

    The whole issue comes to whether the diet member and the cabinet have right to practice the prayer in private capacity.

    what ever they do in their private life must be transparent to the public.

    To some extent yes.
    But keep in mind you can practice the prayer, transparent to public, and yet, it can still be
    the prayer in private capacity.
    After all, christian politicians practice the prayer. The diet member goes to the Buddhism temple for funeral. That is all transparent to public and yet they are done in private capacity.

    I believe paying tribute to war dead is a very public thing.

    That is exactly what you have to prove.
    Paying tribute to war dead can be private or public.
    As long as PM passes the quasi-lemon test, it is not unconstitutional.
    On the other hand, depriving their freedom to worship
    in private capacity without compelling reasons would be unconstitutional.

    What are the ground you say their freedom to worship should be deprived ?

    If they want to do it in private manner, just go straight to the grave of the departed or go to Chidorigafuchi.

    Chritians has the right to vist Church even though they can pray at the Buddhist temple.

    I guess you are saying that in view of politics, because the relation with China will deteriorate, it is desirable that they should go straight to the grave of the departed, or go to Chidorigafuti.
    That is one understandable position.
    As I said elsewhere, I for one do not give a damn whether PM go to Yasukuni or not.

    But I am saying what is at stake is not just a matter of policy but a matter of principle.
    I am saying that if he wants to visit Yasukuni and pray, he has the right to do so in private capacity against political pressure.
    You are saying, it seems, that policy is more important than the fundamental human rights such as the freedom to worship.
    Meiji constitution was like that. China is like that.
    But I am opposed to it.

    I’ll ask again what are the grounds for depriving PM’s right to worship in private capacity at whatever places he like ?

  70. Aceface said

    “Come on. You can criticize Syuukan as much as you want. Just as Asahi criticize PM, they can criticize Shyuyukan. You can criticize and influence it.”
    “And what I am saying is your object of the attack is misdirected.”

    As long as Yusyukan is managed by the shrine,Yasukuni nears all the responsibility.

    “But we are talking about the simple and decent wish that people want to practice the prayer for the war-dead, and we are talking about whether their right to do so should be protected.”

    I’ve said multiple times that I’m not at all against ordinary people going to Yasukuni.

    “That is exactly what you have to prove.Paying tribute to war dead can be private or public.”

    If you go to the individuals grave,that is private,to Yasukuni or Chidorigafuchi then that’s a public act.Besides those bipartisan politicians are making groups in diet like みんなで靖国参拝を実行する会.It can’t be private.

    “What are the ground you say their freedom to worship should be deprived ?”

    The politician’s personal freedom nor right has conflict with public interest,he should choose the latter.

    “You are saying, it seems, that policy is more important than the fundamental human rights such as the freedom to worship.”
    No.I just don’t think Yasukuni is the place to show respect on “fundamental human rights” nor”freedom of religion”.The reasons I’ve already posted.

    “I’ll ask again what are the grounds for depriving PM’s right to worship in private capacity at whatever places he like ”

    1)Yasukuni is the symbol of state shinto that had oppressed this country’s religious freedom in the past.Those who are honored there include war criminals.It’s assorted museum run by the shrine is based on the historical view that opposses current view of text books recognized by ministry of education.

    2)tributing war dead by person in the public service must be conducted as part of official assignment.In the manner of acceptable to all members of the society.

    3)Politicians should stay away from the religious disputes,to maintain secularism of the society.

    4)Politicians,especially the prime minister should contain his personal emotion and restirict his or her personal freedom while in the office,for many would be influenced by that.

  71. Aceface said

    nears×
    bears○

  72. ponta said

    Aceface
    Thanks

    As long as Yusyukan is managed by the shrine, Yasukuni nears all the responsibility.

    Since it bears all the responsibility, it needs to take criticism seriously. When the government can not legally force the shrine to hold a specific view, criticism from the civilians are essential.
    I don’t understand why you misdirect the attack to PM.

    If you go to the individuals grave, that is private, to Yasukuni or Chidorigafuchi then that’s a public act. Besides those bipartisan politicians are making groups in diet like みんなで靖国参拝を実行する会.It can’t be private.

    If you visit Daibutsu temple, is it automatically an public act?—I don’t think so.If the visit is in group, does that make it a public act?—I don’t think so.
    Besides, Doi, a Christian diet member of democratic party carries out the prayer with other diet members.
    http://doiryuu3.exblog.jp/
    Is it a public act? It is public in a sense that it is transparent to public, but isn’t it done in private capacity? Do you think their prayer should be
    banned because Christianity is the symbol of the bloody religion for some just as Yasukuni is the symbolic target of China’s nationalism?

    The politician’s personal freedom nor right has conflict with public interest,he should choose the latter.

    I don’t claim the politician’s freedom should granted
    without limit, but I claim his/her fundamental right should be respected to the maxim;That is what constitution says.
    I respect your opinion;I’ve heard it several times, but I am asking what is the compelling reason to override his/her fundamental right.
    And specifically what is the public interest you are talking here? Not many Japanese people are concerned about whether PM visit Yasukuni or not. China says the PM’s visit to Yasukuni hurt the feelings of Chinese people, i.e., Chinese nationalism. Is that it? —Is that the public interest you are talking about?

    ““You are saying, it seems, that policy is more important than the fundamental human rights such as the freedom to worship.”No.I just don’t think Yasukuni is the place to show respect on “fundamental human rights” nor”freedom of religion”.The reasons I’ve already posted.

    You just don’t think that Yasukuni is the place to show respect on “fundamental human rights”, but that does not make your statement true. What you said is that they can visit Chidorigafuti instead, but that misses the point, as I pointed out.
    Yasukuni has a special meaning for those who visits there:soldiers died believing that they would meet the survivor at Yasukuni. People visit Yasukuni to fulfill their promise.(Probably you didn’t read the part you said was unnecessary.)
    And freedom to worship include to worship at whatever
    church/shrine/temple they please. You-just-think-it is-not-fundamental-right does not make the act an instance of the act protected by the constitution.

    Yasukuni is the symbol of state shinto that had oppressed this country’s religious freedom in the past.

    It can be argued with a reason that Yasukuni WAS the symbol of state shinto that had oppressed this country’s religious freedom just as Japanese flag was the symbol of militarism.
    But it does not follow they ARE symbols of the oppression, militarism:Yasukuni is not oppressing any religion; (On a side note, a point of lemon test was to exclude this possibility), Japan is not militarist anymore.
    I don’t think the leftist teachers’ favorite type of the argument works.

    Those who are honored there include war criminals .It’s assorted museum run by the shrine is based on the historical view that opposes current view of text books recognized by ministry of education.

    Your target should be some aspect of Yasukuni shrine.
    As I argued, Christianity has some aspect that should be criticized from modern liberal democratic view, but it should not prevernt people including the head of the state,legally, politically, to practice the prayer in private capacity. I have heard no respond to this argument from you.

    )tributing war dead by person in the public service must be conducted as part of official assignment.In the manner of acceptable to all members of the society.

    That is okay, they can do it at Chidorigafuti. But we are talking about whether PM’s right in private capacity to visit Yasukuni should be protected.

    3)Politicians should stay away from the religious disputes, to maintain secularism of the society.

    I thought you were saying Yasukuni visit was not religious at all…..Anyway,there is not religious dispute about the PM’s visit;There is a political pressure to stop PM’s visiting Yasukuni in private capacity–a part of the freedom to the faith guaranteed by the constitution. (The religious disputes is rather whether A-criminals deserve to be enshrined at Yasukuni; Some claims that they are enshrined not because what they did, but because they are dead related to the war, and because Shinto is afraid of the curse of the dead who died miserably. Others argue that they don’t want to see the evil leaders enshrined with others soldiers.)
    Besides, when Takaichi visited Yasukuni this time , there was no dispute to speak of.

    Politicians, especially the prime minister should contain his personal emotion and restrict his or her personal freedom while in the office, for many would be influenced by that.

    That is a good tip for PM, but that has nothing to do with whether his right to faith is granted.

    To sum up,
    Some people argue;
    PM has no right to visit Yasukuni.
    Visiting Yasukuni is not a right granted by the constitution.

    I think these views are hard to hold. The constitution clearly state that

    Freedom of religion is guaranteed to all

    And freedom of religion include the practicing the prayer at the church/temple/shrine he/she pleases.

    Others argue:
    PM’s right should be suspended.

    But the reason is not clear. If the conflicts with the public interest is a good candidate, but when it comes to the fundamental right such as freedom to worship in private capacity, you need the compelling reason.

    Still others argue:
    PM has the right;as long as he/she passe the quasi-lemon test he can visit Yasukuni in private capacity if he wants to, but he should refrain from visiting in view of politics.

    I think this is the most reasonable view.
    And when we analyze the content of “politics”, it is not domestic politics.There are disputs about the issue for sure, and I think people, shinto believer or not, can criticize Yasukuni as much as they want. However,General public are not interested in Yasuskuni:not many Japanese people visit Yasukuni for the prayer. (I hear it is a good dating spot, though), and people who visit Yasukuni visit there whether they hate A-criminals or not, whether they hate the idea that A-criminals are enshrined. It is not even an item of the list for the point of disputes in this election. That is understandable. After all, Mao,Sygman Lyee,etc. are honored among its people and there is no fuss about it though many civilians were killed under them.

    It is mainly international relation that matters. In particular it is mainly China and China’s nationalism that matter. (Bush didn’t care) That is very important;we should be mindful of that.We will kiss China’s ass .

    Asian-American lobbying groups playing hardball in comfort woman game


    That might be a good way to survive for a fragile country like Japan.

  73. Aceface said

    “I don’t understand why you misdirect the attack to PM.”

    I don’t understand,Ponta.You were saying
    “Come on. You can criticize Syuukan as much as you want. Just as Asahi criticize PM, they can criticize Shyuyukan. You can criticize and influence it.
    Because of the criticism, the Yushyuukan will change the description at the museum. No?
    And what I am saying is your object of the attack is misdirected.”

    Naturally I thought you were saying it is the Yusyuukan that is bad,not the entire shrine argument.I must say what you write is very confusing.

    “If you visit Daibutsu temple, is it automatically an public act?—I don’t think so.If the visit is in group, does that make it a public act?—I don’t think so.”

    We are talking about Yasukuni.We are talking about tribute to the war dead.Not about going to the buddhist temple or churches.What you are saying is totally ;osing context of the debate.

    “Yasukuni is the symbolic target of China’s nationalism?”

    Yasukuni is the target of criticism not just from “China’s nationalism”.

    “And specifically what is the public interest you are talking here? Not many Japanese people are concerned about whether PM visit Yasukuni or not. China says the PM’s visit to Yasukuni hurt the feelings of Chinese people, i.e., Chinese nationalism. Is that it? —Is that the public interest you are talking about?”

    Actually a lot of Japanese people are concerned about PM visit of Yasukuni.Japanese PM has been suspending to visit Yasukuni for more than 20 years.We accepted this status quo.I need some accountability of the sudden change.From the view point of secularism and our position of historical view.
    China can be a threat in multiple ways.Concerning it’s nationalism is vital for our national interest,Is it not?

    “You just don’t think that Yasukuni is the place to show respect on “fundamental human rights”, but that does not make your statement true.”
    Now you should tell me the reason why it is not true.I’ve already said multiple times that I am not against people visiting Yasukuni.

    “It can be argued with a reason that Yasukuni WAS the symbol of state shinto that had oppressed this country’s religious freedom just as Japanese flag was the symbol of militarism.
    But it does not follow they ARE symbols of the oppression, militarism:Yasukuni is not oppressing any religion; (On a side note, a point of lemon test was to exclude this possibility), Japan is not militarist anymore.”

    Japan is not militarist anymore,But Yasukuni is not doing enough change to meet the current state of Japanese society.

    “Your target should be some aspect of Yasukuni shrine.”

    That is exactly what I’m doing.

    “As I argued, Christianity has some aspect that should be criticized from modern liberal democratic view, but it should not prevernt people including the head of the state,legally, politically, to practice the prayer in private capacity. I have heard no respond to this argument from you.”

    Yes,You did.I said many times if politicians wish to fullfill there religious need in their private capacity they can always go to anyothere shrine,but Yasukuni.

    “I thought you were saying Yasukuni visit was not religious at all…..”

    So I said.But I’m aware of the other argument such as yours…So I say again.No yasukuni visits,No religious feud.

    “Besides, when Takaichi visited Yasukuni this time , there was no dispute to speak of. ”

    That is simply Abe choose not to visit and Takaichi is not much of a politician to speak of.

    “I don’t think the leftist teachers’ favorite type of the argument works.”

    Ha.I was NEVER the leftist teacher’s favorite in my days….

  74. ponta said

    Aceface
    Thanks.

    Naturally I thought you were saying it is the Yusyuukan that is bad,not the entire shrine argument.I must say what you write is very confusing.

    I am saying you can criticize Yasukuni or Yusyuukan just as you can criticize Christianity. And just because there are some aspects that Christianity are to blame, it is misdirected to blame people who visit Church to pray. Likewise your target should be Yasukuni or Yusyuukan, not the people visiting Yasukuni including PM’s visit in private capacity.
    Did I make myself clear?

    We are talking about Yasukuni.We are talking about tribute to the war dead.Not about going to the Buddhist temple or churches.What you are saying is totally ;osing context of the debate

    We are talking about Yasukuni, and I am taking up the visit to Buddhist temple, christian church etc. for the comparison. What we are finding out ,and what you are turning an blind eye is the fact they are treated differently regardless of the similar conditions.
    In case of Buddhism, Christianity, Mao, Sygmond Lyee,etc, you are saying that is okay for the head of the state to visit the place its religious place or the place they are honored, but when it comes to Yasukuni, you just think PM’s visit is no, no.

    Actually a lot of Japanese people are concerned about PM visit of Yasukuni. Japanese PM has been suspending to visit Yasukuni for more than 20 years.We accepted this status quo.I need some accountability of the sudden change.From the view point of secularism and our position of historical view.

    I am not sure how many Japanese, and when they are concerned, main concern is likely to be if the relation with China but Aceface, I am asking the public interest you are talking about. People are concerned about many things, but that does not mean it is the public interest that are to override the PM’s right to visit Yasukuni in private capacity. For instance, the diet have power to enact the law restricting the right to food trade in order to prevent disease, because it is the public interest
    to keep public health. What is the public interest that can override PM’s freedom to faith?

    I said many times if politicians wish to fullfill there religious need in their private capacity they can always go to anyothere shrine,but Yasukuni.

    Yes, you did, you have repeated the same claim without responding the criticism. Of course they can, but the point is whether his right to visit Yasukuni should be restricted. You said at one time, if I remember correctly, PM has no right to visit Yasukuni, the visiting Yasukuni is not included in the fundamental right, you also said at another time that his right should be suspended. These are different claims and anyway I refuted them both. I am afraid you are just repeating I-just-think-blah-blah-blah

    Japan is not militarist anymore,But Yasukuni is not doing enough change to meet the current state of Japanese society.

    You claim was that “Yasukuni was the symbol of state Shinto that had oppressed this country’s religious freedom in the past.”
    Yasukuni is not doing that at all now.
    So what is your claim now?
    Your new claim is that Yasukuni is the symbol of the religion that is not doing enough to change t meet the current state of Japanese society, is that it?
    Does that matter? Many organizations are like that.

    “Your target should be some aspect of Yasukuni shrine.”

    That is exactly what I’m doing.

    And you are claiming more. You are claiming that there is no right for PM to visit Yasukui because Yasukuni is not doing doing enough to change to meet the current state of Japanese society. I have argued the blaiming people including the head of the state for visting Church, Shrine etc because there are some aspect to blame about their religion is misdirected.

    So I say again.No yasukuni visits,

    Just like Chinese nationalists.

    “Besides, when Takaichi visited Yasukuni this time , there was no dispute to speak of. ”

    That is simply Abe choose not to visit and Takaichi is not much of a politician to speak of.

    Wait, you claim was ” Politicians should stay away from the religious disputes,to maintain secularism of the society.”
    Takaichi is a politician, and the minister.
    So let me cofirm your new claim. your claim now is that politicians has a freedom to visit Yasukuni but PM and the only PM has no freedom to visit Yasukuni, Is that it?

    And what is the religious disputes when Abe and Takaishi visit Yasukuni?

    Ha.I was NEVER the leftist teacher’s favorite in my days…

    Unfortunately the structure of the argument as for the point is the same.

  75. ponta said

    “You just don’t think that Yasukuni is the place to show respect on “fundamental human rights”, but that does not make your statement true.”
    Now you should tell me the reason why it is not true.I’ve already said multiple times that I am not against people visiting Yasukuni.

    I think I’ve shown, but anyway.
    (1) Freedom to faith is guaranteed to all by the constitution.
    (2) PM is included in “all”
    (3) Freedom to faith includes the right to visist place where you want to pray.
    (4) PM has a right to visit Yasukuni.

    One of your claim is that PM has no right to faith with regard to Yasukuni. I have argued that is not true as shown above.

    The next step is how PM’s right is resritcted due to other demands by the constitution.
    (5) PM can not visit Shrine in the way that violate the separation of the religion and the state.
    I agree.
    Your another claim is that (PM has the right but)
    (6) PM’s right should be suspended.
    I have argued that you have not shown the sufficient, compelling reason for such a strong right as the freedom to faith.

    ……………………………………………
    correction
    main concern is likely to be if the relation with China
    →the main concern is likely to be if the relation with China will deteriorate.

  76. Aceface said

    “I am saying you can criticize Yasukuni or Yusyuukan just as you can criticize Christianity.”

    No.not really.Both Yasukuni and Yusyuukan is institution,not religion itself,Nobody is denouncing Shinto here.

    “Likewise your target should be Yasukuni or Yusyuukan”

    That’s waht I’ve been saying from the beginning,Ponta.

    “not the people visiting Yasukuni including PM’s visit in private capacity.”

    PM is not included in the “people”,for the reason I’ve said in above.

    “We are talking about Yasukuni, and I am taking up the visit to Buddhist temple, christian church etc. for the comparison.”

    This comparison is not valid,as I’ve wrote above.

    “What we are finding out ,and what you are turning an blind eye is the fact they are treated differently regardless of the similar conditions.”

    No,I’m not turnig any “blind eye”for anything,Ponta.and the yasukuni issue and other religious freedom is not in the similar condition.

    “In case of Buddhism, Christianity, Mao, Sygmond Lyee,etc, you are saying that is okay for the head of the state to visit the place its religious place or the place they are honored, but when it comes to Yasukuni, you just think PM’s visit is no, no.”

    I’m not against politicians going to religious institution for their own personal religious needs.I’m against Yasukini.
    Just in case you don’t know,either Korean,Chinese and American veteran’s memorial place are all secular(non religious institution or multi religious)institutions,unlike Yasukuni.

    “What is the public interest that can override PM’s freedom to faith?”

    When it’s come to Yasukuni,what people think is not about “PM’s freedom to faith”,but how the nation honor the wardead,No?
    In democratic society,I think both the transparency and accountability is crucial public interest.

    “I(Aceface) said many times if politicians wish to fullfill there religious need in their private capacity they can always go to anyothere shrine,but Yasukuni.”

    “Yes, you did, you have repeated the same claim without responding the criticism. Of course they can”

    I think I responded your criticism.Just look above.

    “You said at one time, if I remember correctly, PM has no right to visit Yasukuni, the visiting Yasukuni is not included in the fundamental right, you also said at another time that his right should be suspended. These are different claims and anyway I refuted them both. I am afraid you are just repeating I-just-think-blah-blah-blah”

    I “think” PM has no right to visit Yasukuni,But I could be wrong for he too is a free human being and no one can take away his born rights.In that case his “rights” should be suspended.

    “You claim was that “Yasukuni was the symbol of state Shinto that had oppressed this country’s religious freedom in the past.”
    Yasukuni is not doing that at all now.
    So what is your claim now?”

    Once a symbol,always a symbol.Anyway Yasukuni needs huge gentrification process to call itself “changed”.

    “Does that matter? Many organizations are like that.”

    Yes it does,and many organization had chose to change somehow over the years.

    “And you are claiming more. You are claiming that there is no right for PM to visit Yasukui because Yasukuni is not doing doing enough to change to meet the current state of Japanese society. I have argued the blaiming people including the head of the state for visting Church, Shrine etc because there are some aspect to blame about their religion is misdirected.”

    Now you are repeating I-just-think-blah-blah-blah,Althogh I’ve noticed you’ve been doing all along….

    “Just like Chinese nationalists.”

    I’m a Japanese nationalist.
    And I said”No yasukuni visits,NO RELIGIOUS FEUD”.You are deleting the latter half of the comment to match your need.
    Pretty much a Chinese Communist party trick,if you ask me.

    “Wait, you claim was ” Politicians should stay away from the religious disputes,to maintain secularism of the society.”
    Takaichi is a politician, and the minister.
    So let me cofirm your new claim. your claim now is that politicians has a freedom to visit Yasukuni but PM and the only PM has no freedom to visit Yasukuni, Is that it?”

    That was the reply to your “Besides, when Takaichi visited Yasukuni this time , there was no dispute to speak of”comment,and I said,yeah that’s because Takaichi is not excatlly a big fish compared to Shinzo Abe.
    While I do think no politicians should go to Yasukuni,I must admit that they can do little harm compare to the prime minister of Japan.So tone of my criticism might get low down.

    I’ll let you know what my “claim” is in written words,You don’t have to speculate them from reading between the lines,Ponta.I know you are having trouble getting what I write several times.

    “Your another claim is that (PM has the right but)
    (6) PM’s right should be suspended.
    I have argued that you have not shown the sufficient, compelling reason for such a strong right as the freedom to faith.”

    The duty of the prime minister is to protect and serve the public interest and bare all the responsibility of his actions and speeches while he/she is in office.
    If it’s religion he/he is concerned of,there are thousand of alternatives that can avoid going to Yasukuhni(Like Ise).If it is honoring the war dead,there is always Chidorigafuchi.
    If it is “I-have-my-natural-born-right-protected-in-the-constitution”argument,then I say PM should just shubbed it into his or her ass.

    “Ha.I(Aceface) was NEVER the leftist teacher’s favorite in my days…”
    “Unfortunately the structure of the argument as for the point is the same.”

    Well,Sometimes the lefts are right and the right are wrong…

  77. tomojiro said

    Ponta

    It is becoming tiresome to accompany your “Herikutsu”, but anyway….

    You see, the PM is the second most public person in Japan (after the emperor), regardless what he thinks or believe, whatever he does, it becomes public, if he is doing, speaking acting in the public sphere. Visiting Yasukuni Shrine in front of the Camera is HARDLY a private act.

    And honestly, every politician is aware of that. You know that. That is why Koizumi, who never visited the Yasukuni shrine as a politican before he became PM, used very effectively his promise to visit the shrine to gather the votes of the Izokukai, thus winning the election for the PM.

    Exactly why Abe, who against his private beliefs about patriotism and nationalism refrains from visiting the shrine (I appreciate that).

    A politician going to a controversial place, sends a message to the world, whether he likes it or not, whether he has intended that or not let alone the PM.

    As I said, it is not about “religion”, nobody makes a fuzz about the visit of the PM when he is visiting the Ise shrine or the Meiji jingu. Why? Because Yasukuni has a special political meaning REGARDLESS of the Chinese or the Korean.

    And of course, the priest at the Yasukuni knows that. Therefore he made Yushukan.

    Sorry, it is all in Japanese, but Ponta maybe you will find this article by Tachibana Takashi interesting.
    公人には通用しない「心の中の分祀」論
    問題になるのは、公人の立場にある人が、公人として参拝する場合だけである。
    そして、日本国の最大の公人といえば、天皇と総理大臣ないし、最高裁長官、衆参両院議長の三権の長である。それらの人々が公人として参拝すれば、それは日本という国家を公に代表しての行動となり、その行動は、「心の問題だから個人の勝手でしょ」の理屈で済ますことはできない問題となる。
    天皇は、個人の心情の問題としてではなく、日本国を象徴する最大の公人という立場であるという自覚があるからこそ、A級戦犯を祀る靖国神社に参拝することができないのである。
    天皇あるいは三権の長のような立場の人の参拝の場合、それは即A級戦犯に対する参拝と受け取られ、「心の中の分祀」論は通用しなくなる。分祀を主張するためには、それが即物的に分祀された状態にあることが必要である。
    小泉首相の「心の問題」論は、この視点を完全に欠落させている。自分が天皇に次ぐ、国家の象徴そのものなのだということを忘れた議論である。
    (中略)
    日本の戦後の再出発は、すべて、あの戦争の清算の上に立てられたのだから、それを乱すようなことは、国家としてできないのである。
    具体的にいえば、ポツダム宣言の受け入れ。その帰結としてのミズリー号上の降伏文書調印。またポツダム宣言受諾の結果として国家主権を全部占領軍のコントロール下に置き、国家システムのすべてを占領軍の命令によって変更していくことの受け入れ。そして同時にあの戦争を清算するための儀式としての東京裁判の受け入れ。その受け入れを表明した上で結ばれたサンフランシスコ講和条約、この一連の出来事のすべてが、どの一つも揺るがせにできない国家の戦争敗北の約束そのものなのである。それは受け入れるしか選択の余地がないものである。
    戦争清算のシンボルであるA級戦犯を合祀して、そこに日本国を象徴する天皇が拝みに行くというようなことは、まさにそのような戦後国家日本の再出発の原点を乱す行為にあたるが故に、天皇としては何としてもするわけにはいかない行為なのである。
    (中略)
    私にいわせれば、いまさら東京裁判の否定だの、A級戦犯に罪なし論などを並べ立てるバカ連中は、あの戦争に敗北した事実を男らしく受け止めることができない連中だとしかいいようがない。
    いまさらそのような泣き言を並べるくらいなら、どうしてあの戦争の最後の場面で、本当の一億玉砕をやってのけるくらいの覇気を見せられなかったのか。
    あれだけ文句なしの大敗北を喫した以上、負けのすべて(先のすべてのプロセス)を堂々と認めるべきである。負けたら負けたで、負けっぷりはよくすべきで、あれはいやだの、これはいやだのといった泣き言をいつまでも並べ立てるべきではない。
    どうしても負けの一部を認めたくないのなら、もう一戦やることを覚悟して文句を並べるべきである。
    (中略)
    歴史認識の問題で問題が起きているのは、もっぱら対中国・韓国の問題だろうと日本人の大多数は思っているようだが、実際には、対アメリカでの歴史認識のちがい問題に火がついたら、それは手がつけられないほど深刻な問題になるのだということを知っておくべきである。

    http://www.nikkeibp.co.jp/style/biz/feature/tachibana/media/060812_tomita_memo/index.html

    It really don’t helps to compare yasukuni or enshrinement of the A-class war criminals with cult of mao or Syngman Rhee. It is just 泣き言.

    “Ponta believes that the private belief of the PM,blah blah blah” doesn’t help either.

  78. ponta said

    Tomojiro
    Thanks.

    It is becoming tiresome to accompany your “Herikutsu”, but anyway…

    I suggest you to stop reacting emotionally. You did it when someone commented by calling him a troll without argument. And now you do it calling my argument Herikutu without argument. When you can not counter argue, is it Herikutu? is it a troll?

    All you need to do is just argue and attack my argument logically, not me, not emotionally. Let’s be careful.

    You see, the PM is the second most public person in Japan (after the emperor), regardless what he thinks or believe, whatever he does, it becomes public, if he is doing, speaking acting in the public sphere. Visiting Yasukuni Shrine in front of the Camera is HARDLY a private act.

    You completely miss the point.
    What’s your claim? Is it your claim that the only
    PM should be banned from visiting Yasukuni because everything he does is public?
    Let’s not just repeat the uncleared claim, but start counter-arguing and responding to the criticism, for making the discussion not “tiresome”
    How do you respond to the fact. as I said, that PM can visit Buddhist temple to pray in private capacity for the funeral , transparent to the public?
    .

    very politician is aware of that. You know that. That is why Koizumi, who never visited the Yasukuni shrine as a politician before he became PM

    That is not how the media took Koizumi’s action. Koizumi didn’t visit Yasukuni on Aug 15 due to the political pressure, ultimately from China, to stop it, not because he was aware that he was prime minister and whatever he does partake of public person. He said he visited Yasukuni in private capacity.

    Besides, I am afraid you miss the point again.
    The point is whether PM has right to visit Yasukuni on whatever day.
    Aceface sometimes says he has no right, other times says his right should be suspended. I say though it is possible that the political consideration comes in his decision, it does not mean he does not have the right:he has the right, his right should not be suspended.
    It seems you don’t understand where the point lies. This point is important, because it is not just a matter of policy but it is a matter of a principle. If the policy can overturn the fundamental right so easily , for instance, by saying that it is not fundamental right, or that it is not the problem of the right, as you imply, the new constitution lose its significance:it differ from Meiji constitution, for one thing, in that it emphasize the individual right should be respected to the maxim.
    In this sense, it is essential to keep in mind that he has the right to visit Yasukuni as long as he does not violate the article 21 (3) if he wants to.
    The fact that he can visit Chidorigafuti if he want to pray does not matter.

    Having said that, I didn’t deny the political consideration come in.
    And when we look at how PM should act in this regard, China’s reaction plays the most important part. (Notice I am making second claim here)
    1)Nakasone’s decision was directly influenced by China.
    2)Business top leaders are concerned mainly because the trade with China might deteriorate.
    3)Yamasaki and the members of Komei party visited to inquire how China will respond.
    4)If the enshrinement of A-criminals are the main concern, it should be the issue all the time.
    5)If the general public is concerned about the enshrinement of A-criminals and the PM visit to Yasukuni, it should be on the list for the points in this election, but it was not on the list.

    Having argued that, I concluded that it might be a good idea that PM should be mindful of that.

    But we should also keep in mind this issue is mainly influenced by Chinese nationalism and hence Japanese PM can adversely influence and destabilize the Chinese domestic.

    If the leaders under whom a great number of civilians died under their bad policy and/or the invasion was done are the problem, the fact that Mao, Sygman Lyee
    are honored can be problematic. But it is not the issue for them because while Yasukuni is their symbolic target for their nationalism , the places they are honored are not.

    Another important point I have argued is that when you attack PM’s visit to Yasukuni, let’s not confuse the problem of Yasukuni and the problem of PM’s visit to Yasukuni.

    PM can do nothing about the fact that A-criminals are enshrined and the fact the descriptions of history at Yusyuukan are not appropriate.
    If you want attack the fact, you should attack Yasukuni.( In this regard, I am glad Aceface has changed his/her opinion;He/She used to say, in response to my suggestion to attack Yasukuni, “As long as the Yasukuni shrine is in charge of managing the Yusyukan and hold responsibility of the exhibit, that can not be done.” but he/she now says that is what she/he is doing.)
    However fierce you criticize PM for that, she/he can
    do nothing about it.

    And if you want to blame PM’s visit to Yasukuni because A-criminals are enshrined, I think you need arguments thatbecause Yasukuni denies the criminality of A-criminals rather than because they are dead in relation to the war and that people who visit Yasukuni endorse what A-criminals did. It is against the fact that all the people who practice the prayer at Yasukuni endorse what A-criminals did. And if ordinary people are like that, you have to show why PM’s visit to Yasukuni would counts as the visit endorsing A-criminals regardless of the fact the PM clearly said that he accepted the judgment of Tokyo Trial.

    Abe, who against his private beliefs about patriotism and nationalism refrains from visiting the shrine (I appreciate that).

    The point is again whether he has the right or not.
    The fact he didn’t visit is irrelevant.
    Besides, his non-visit is more nuanced than that.

    Prime Minister Abe did not go to pay his respects at the Yasukuni Shrine on August 15. Mr. Walsh sees this as “simply the latest step back toward a more disengaged Japan.” But it was nothing of the sort. His no-show was foreordained sometime during the spring or summer of 2006, when Mr. Abe and his associates reached an unstated understanding that Mr. Abe would not visit Yasukuni during his likely tenure as successor to Junichiro Koizumi. In fact, it has enabled Mr. Abe to pursue what some call a nationalist agenda with nary a peep from Chinese authorities. (Most people see such acquiescence as a consequence of their desire for domestic stability. I don’t disagree with this assessment, but I also believe that this is possible only because they do not actually see such a Japan in its own right as a strategic threat in its own right.) Besides, he has always believed that the spring and autumn rites are the more important events, which makes sense when you consider his historical perspective and political agenda.

    http://son-of-gadfly-on-the-wall.blogspot.com/2007/08/ldp-loses-big-and-prime-ministers-no.html

    A politician going to a controversial place, sends a message to the world, whether he likes it or not, whether he has intended that or not

    Sure, so ?

    As I said, it is not about “religion”, nobody makes a fuzz about the visit of the PM when he is visiting the Ise shrine or the Meiji jingu. Why? Because Yasukuni has a special political meaning REGARDLESS of the Chinese or the Korean.

    Don’t repeat the old claim without responding the criticism.
    I didn’t deny that the PM’s visit to yasukuni will bring about the political dispute. However, all the people concerned with the legal sue against PM’s visit to Yasukuni argue for or against whether his visit does not violate the principle of the religion and the state. In addition, praying for the war-dead is religious act because it presuppose the faith in super-natural entity. It is the PM’s freedom to faith v political pressure.
    If you want to deny it is not religious act, start arguing for it.
    And when Takaishi and Ishihara did visit Yasukuni, the media just reported it, didn’t make fuss about it. For one thing, because China didn’t make fuss about it. No?

    それらの人々が公人として参拝すれば、それは日本という国家を公に代表しての行動となり、その行動は、「心の問題だから個人の勝手でしょ」の理屈で済ますことはできない問題となる

    PM said he visit Yasukuni in private capacity.

    天皇あるいは三権の長のような立場の人の参拝の場合、それは即A級戦犯に対する参拝と受け取られ

    In case of Koizumi, he made it clear that he had no particular person in mind when he visited.
    And I don’t think he was worshipping the killing, invasion. Do people who visit Allington praise the killing and the invasion?

    戦争清算のシンボルであるA級戦犯を合祀して、そこに日本国を象徴する天皇が拝みに行くというようなことは、まさにそのような戦後国家日本の再出発の原点を乱す行為にあたるが故に、天皇としては何としてもするわけにはいかない行為なのである。

    That is just his speculation about the emperor’s motivation..
    Besides, just as people who visit Yasukuni do not deny that the war was insane, it does not follow that
    the people who visit Yasukuni deny the judgement of Tokyo trial, (Koizumi said he accept it), Potsdam declaration etc.

    歴史認識の問題で問題が起きているのは、もっぱら対中国・韓国の問題だろうと日本人の大多数は思っているようだが、


    So what is his argument that it is not mainly China that influenced the decision of PM not to visit Yasukuni.
    Nakasone stopped visiting Yasukuni because of China.

    実際には、対アメリカでの歴史認識のちがい問題に火がついたら、それは手がつけられないほど深刻な問題になるのだということを知っておくべきである

    I don’t understand what it means. Does he mean to say if Japan made the issue the indicriminatate bombing, a historical issue, the first priority in politics, it
    will turn to a grave problem, just as China is doing?
    Ozawa said Japan should. But I think it is not good idea.
    Or does he mean to say that Japan should accept whatever the U.S. says about a historical issue just as the resolution 121? My view is Japan should respond appropriately, point out the distortion, explain what really happened, what Japan did to compensate it.
    In a nutshell, on the whole the author set up speculations without evidence to blame PM.

    Tomojiro, as I said before, the argument consist of a thesis and reasons to back it up. The counter-argument is the logical attack with another reason against the reason presented by the opponent. And they constitute a debate, a discussion. Calling someone a troll, calling a argument is herikutu without argument is not counter-argument. Repeating you opinion without reasons, without responding the criticism is not a discussion.

  79. ponta said

    it differ from Meiji constitution, for one thing, in that it emphasize the individual right should be respected to the maxim.

    it differs from Meiji constitution, for one thing, in that the individual right should be respected to the maxim.

    I think you need arguments thatbecause Yasukuni denies the criminality of A-criminals rather than because they are dead in relation to the war and

    I think you need arguments that they are enshrined because Yasukuni denies the criminality of A-criminals rather than because they are dead in relation to the war and…

    if Japan made the issue the indicriminatate bombing, a historical issue, the first priority in politics,

    if Japan made the indicriminatate bombing, a historical issue, the first priority in politics…,

  80. Aceface said

    “I am saying you can criticize Yasukuni or Yusyuukan just as you can criticize Christianity. And just because there are some aspects that Christianity are to blame, it is misdirected to blame people who visit Church to pray. ”
    What we see problem is a religious institution called Yasukuni,not the religion shinto.Yhus Yasukuni Christianity comparison do not stand.And I’ve said multiple times I’m not accusing ordinary people going to Yasukuni just as you had admitted that I said so.Why are you back “stepping?

    “PM can do nothing about the fact that A-criminals are enshrined and the fact the descriptions of history at Yusyuukan are not appropriate.”

    Then he should not go to Yasukuni.君子危うきに近寄るべからず

    ”If you want attack the fact, you should attack Yasukuni.( In this regard, I am glad Aceface has changed his/her opinion;He/She used to say, in response to my suggestion to attack Yasukuni, “As long as the Yasukuni shrine is in charge of managing the Yusyukan and hold responsibility of the exhibit, that can not be done.” but he/she now says that is what she/he is doing.)”

    Now waaait a minuite,Ponta.That was in response to YOUR suggestion of”attack “Yuusyukan”.And I said “Yusyukan and Yasukuni are inseparable”.And you said “attack Yasukuni but not the people who go there”,and I said “I never criticized ordinary people going there.”No?

    “What we are finding out ,and what you are turning an blind eye is the fact they are treated differently regardless of the similar conditions.
    In case of Buddhism, Christianity, Mao, Sygmond Lyee,etc, you are saying that is okay for the head of the state to visit the place its religious place or the place they are honored, but when it comes to Yasukuni, you just think PM’s visit is no, no.”

    No.They are not in the similar conditions.The memorial place for the wardead of China,Korea and the U.S are basically non^religious institution unlike Yasukuni.

    “What is the public interest that can override PM’s freedom to faith?”

    What exactly is in benefit of having a PM that has higher priority in his or her own personal freedom that overrides the public interest?PM is a political figure.It is in the interest of the people to watch over the use of the power by the most powerful man in Japanese political world.

    “I(Aceface)said many times if politicians wish to fullfill there religious need in their private capacity they can always go to anyothere shrine,but Yasukuni.

    Yes, you did, you have repeated the same claim without responding the criticism. ”

    I just did,And so I did in the past comments.

    “the point is whether his right to visit Yasukuni should be restricted. You said at one time, if I remember correctly, PM has no right to visit Yasukuni, the visiting Yasukuni is not included in the fundamental right, you also said at another time that his right should be suspended. These are different claims and anyway I refuted them both. I am afraid you are just repeating I-just-think-blah-blah-blah”
    “And you are claiming more. You are claiming that there is no right for PM to visit Yasukui because Yasukuni is not doing doing enough to change to meet the current state of Japanese society. I have argued the blaiming people including the head of the state for visting Church, Shrine etc because there are some aspect to blame about their religion is misdirected.”

    “Aceface sometimes says he has no right, other times says his right should be suspended.”

    When I said PM has no right to go to Yasukuni,I did not intended to mean in a strict legal sense,but as the way of the word,like “You have no right to say that to me”.
    and since you start bringing up constitutional rights and all,I step back a little.Still that may be different,the conclusion is unchanged.What you are doing is pointless nit-picking.

    Anyway I wouldn’t throw any stones at opponent if I were sitting in a house of glass as you are now.You should’ve take one more look at what you’ve been writing.

    “You claim was that “Yasukuni was the symbol of state Shinto that had oppressed this country’s religious freedom in the past.”
    Yasukuni is not doing that at all now.
    So what is your claim now?”

    Once a symbol,always a symbol.Yasukuni has still a long way to go to renew it’s public image.

    “Your new claim is that Yasukuni is the symbol of the religion that is not doing enough to change t meet the current state of Japanese society, is that it?
    Does that matter? Many organizations are like that.”

    Yes It does.And many organization(Self Defense Force,Police,Imperial family”had tried hard to overcome the negative past.

    “So I say again.No yasukuni visits,

    Just like Chinese nationalists.”

    No.Not really,I’m a Japanese nationalist.and I was saying No Yasukuni,NO RELIGIOUS FEUD.You are editting my comments to match the need of your criticism(or to be more exact,a retort).
    That is an all too usual petty tactic of Chinese Communist Party,If you ask me.

    “(Aceface said)That is simply Abe choose not to visit and Takaichi is not much of a politician to speak of.”

    “Wait, you claim was ” Politicians should stay away from the religious disputes,to maintain secularism of the society.”
    Takaichi is a politician, and the minister.
    So let me cofirm your new claim. your claim now is that politicians has a freedom to visit Yasukuni but PM and the only PM has no freedom to visit Yasukuni, Is that it?”

    No.It is the response to your “Besides, when Takaichi visited Yasukuni this time , there was no dispute to speak of”. Takaichi is a small fish.ABe is (relatively)a big fish.Abe matters,Takaichi does not.

    “And what is the religious disputes when Abe and Takaishi visit Yasukuni?”

    To us official visit to religious institution threatens secularism of the society,To foreign countries,it is not religious.But historical feud.Anyway this dispute is deadend.So I say it is in the interest of the society that elected politicians not to go to Yasukuni.

    “Unfortunately the structure of the argument as for the point is the same(as the left wings).”

    Well,Sometimes rights aren’t right,and lefts aren’t wrong.

    “does he mean to say that Japan should accept whatever the U.S. says about a historical issue just as the resolution 121? My view is Japan should respond appropriately, point out the distortion, explain what really happened, what Japan did to compensate it.”

    What Tachibana meant to say is if Tokyo denies the Tokyo trial and San Francisco treaty(of which Japan had accepted the judgement at the Tokyo trials in written words)the fundamental foundation of the bilateral relation with the U.S would be threatend.

    T”he counter-argument is the logical attack with another reason against the reason presented by the opponent. And they constitute a debate, a discussion. Calling someone a troll, calling a argument is herikutu without argument is not counter-argument. Repeating you opinion without reasons, without responding the criticism is not a discussion.”

    That seems to be a good sum-up of the situation we are now in.and one thing Ponta.
    No one here is calling you a “troll”….Yet.

  81. KappNets said

    There are rightist people, including Yasukuni priests, in Japan who believe that the war was a just war and Japan is intrinsically free from any guilt as inflicted in Tokyo Tribunal.

    Therefore, it is natural that Chinese, or Americans, feel embitterment, suspecting that they are not learning from history, or at least they are discourtious. Emperor decided not to visit Yasukuni because of this notion.

    However, it is not militarism that lead PMs to Yasukuni. They are simply expressing national pride. The war leaders, for all errors and possible misdoings, lead the nation selflessly. For all the misery of a lost war, we must at least inwardly thank them. The feeling that Chinese may feel against Mao, or Russians against Stalin.

    MacArthur decided not to kill Emperor, the most responsible for the war, because he was not a rogue but personally a noble man. Similarly, Japanese cannot blame the A-criminals for all Americans and Chinese claim.

    This kind of ancestor, or history-maker, worshipping has united Japan for centuries. Japanese can understand the discourtesy against Chinese, of course, but they cannot simply disrespect and forget their one-time leaders of nation building.

  82. ponta said

    Aceface
    Thanks
    Aceface
    Let me be clear what we are discussing.

    (1)PM has no right to visit Yasukuni
    (1′)PM and politicians has no right to visit Yasukuni

    (2)PM has right to visit Yasukuni but his right should be suspended during his term. In other word,
    he can not visit Yasukuni even if he wants to visit.
    (2′)PM and politicians’ right should be suspended..

    (3)PM has right to visit Yasukuni in private capacity;he can visit Yasukuni if he wants to. Political considerations come in his decision to visit Yasukuni.

    Aceface holds (1)~(2′)
    ((1) and (2) are inconsistent;(1) says he has no right, (2) says he has a right)
    I hold (3).

    Aceface repeats NO Yasukuni!!
    In my view, his/her reasons— for prohibiting PM and politician from visiting Yasukuni may work in the weighing on his decision .
    I have argued against (1) citing the constitution.
    In Aceface’s view, PM is not included in “people”:I know the theory that “the emperor” is not included in “people” but Aceface’s theory is new:I am not convinced. Because we are here talking about the freedom to faith defined by the constitution. According to Aceface, PM has no right to believe in Christianity, Buddhism, Shinto, etc. It seems to me that is absurd.
    On another occasion, Aceface says, PM has a right, but his right should be suspended. To suspend such a strong right as freedom to faith, you need the compelling reason. but he/she has not articulated what the public interest he/she has in mind to overturn PM’s right ;at best the public interest is Chinese public interest.

    What we see problem is a religious institution called Yasukuni, not the religion shinto

    I thought you admitted Yasukuni was the religious institution. A change of mind? So what is your argument for your new claim yasukuni is not religion,
    is not practicing shinto religion?

    I’m not accusing ordinary people going to Yasukuni just as you had admitted that I said so .Why are you back “stepping?

    Because I am talking PM’s visit in private capacity.
    And you haven’t argued that PM can not visit religious place to pray in private capacity trasparent to public, just as when he visist Buddhist temple for funeral in private capacity.

    “PM can do nothing about the fact that A-criminals are enshrined and the fact the descriptions of history at Yusyuukan are not appropriate.”

    Then he should not go to Yasukuni.君子危うきに近寄るべからず

    君子危うきに近寄るべからず is a good advise, but it can comes in his decision, but it is not strong enough as
    a reason for the claim that he has no right, his right
    should be suspended.
    In my view, there might be a time that PM should visit Yasukuni for a political reason when for instance, he/she see it fit to destabilize Chinese domestic situation. A state man needs to hold every card in his/her hand.

    No. They are not in the similar conditions. The memorial place for the war dead of China, Korea and the U.S are basically non^religious institution unlike Yasukuni.

    Now Yasukuni is religious institution, a change of mind again?
    You are attacking Yasukuni because it enshrined the war criminals, in particular those leaders who were responsible for the invasion, and the death of civilians. In the same sense, those people I cited are responsible for that and yet honored, and no problem arises., because its people are not praising the evil aspect they brought about, and people know it.

    I am expanding the context to see the peculiar context Japanese are facing. Unfortunately it seems you are not aware of it.

    When I said PM has no right to go to Yasukuni, I did not intended to mean in a strict legal sense

    You said PM is not included in “people” in the constitution. That is strictly legal argument.And you said you were aware I was talking of the constitutional right.

    You should’ve take one more look at what you’ve been writing.

    Thank you. I’ll do it. But that is what I am asking you to do. I am enjoying the discussion, it helps brush up my argument. Remember I don’t give a damn if PM does not visit Yasukuni. I don’t visit Yasukuni. I have no reason to stick to my position if i find the more convincing argument against it.

    Once a symbol, always a symbol.

    A washing-machine was a symbol of a technology for a housewife, but it is not anymore.

    Yasukuni has still a long way to go to renew it’s public image.

    Which public image? As the place for cherry blossom? the place for dating place? The general public does not give a damn about Yasukuni. People know it is a shrine for the war dead in general, and people are aware that there is a controversy, but it is not clear if it is an symbol of Japanese nationalism among Japanese people; To me Japanese nationalism is a mirage now. There is no significant nationalist movement in Japan. Even a Japanese nationalist like you are against PM’s visit to Yasukuni for the reason Chinese gives, citing Japan as a house of glass for another reason.

    And if Yasukuni has such a evil image, why not the people protest just as they did against OM.

    It is mainly symbolic target for Chinese nationalist.

    .“Your new claim is that Yasukuni is the symbol of the religion that is not doing enough to change t meet the current state of Japanese society, is that it?
    Does that matter? Many organizations are like that.”

    Yes It does. And many organization(Self Defense Force,Police,Imperial family”had tried hard to overcome the negative past. And many organization(Self Defense Force,Police,Imperial family”had tried hard to overcome the negative past.

    創価学会、成長の家、PL教団、and other religious organization is not doing enough to change to meet the current state of Japanese society. Some politician visits their church to pray. No problem as far as it is done in private capacity.

    Not really, I’m a Japanese nationalist. and I was saying No Yasukuni, NO RELIGIOUS FEUD. You are editing my comments to match the need of your criticism

    But what is RELIGIOUS FEUD you are talking about?

    Well, Sometimes rights aren’t right, and lefts aren’t wrong.

    That is true. But in this particular case, the argument was wrong.

    Tachibana meant to say is if Tokyo denies the Tokyo trial and San Francisco treaty(of which Japan had accepted the judgement at the Tokyo trials in written words)the fundamental foundation of the bilateral relation with the U.S would be threatened

    Thank you. That helped. so what Tachibana failed to show was why PM’s private visit counts as the denial of Tokyo trial regardless of the clear statement to the contrary, for that matter, he also needs to explain why the visit Arlington does not counts as the affirmation of the Vietnam war, why visiting Mao
    museum does not count as the praise of culutual revolution.etc.

    Ponta.
    No one here is calling you a “troll”….Yet.

    Do you like this kind of rhetoric, Aceface?
    By saying “Yet” you are insinuating that that something is prepared to call me a toll.
    It is as a bad taste as Tomoijro’s and as bad as me saying nobody’s calling you a troll ….yet either.

    Anyway, you missed the point again. My point is when you present the thesis, you need to back it up with reasons. when your reason is criticized, you need to answer with reason. You can not just repeat the old claim. Is it a troll in your dictionary?
    And the argument holds whoever said it.
    when some call you a toll without reason, it is a emotional respond. And it is an emotioal resopond whoever said it. Did I make myself clear?

  83. Aceface said

    “we are here talking about the freedom to faith defined by the constitution. According to Aceface, PM has no right to believe in Christianity, Buddhism, Shinto, etc. It seems to me that is absurd.”

    That’s not what I’ve said.This is not the problem of religious faith.

    “you need the compelling reason. but he/she has not articulated what the public interest he/she has in mind to overturn PM’s right ;at best the public interest is Chinese public interest.”

    I never said the public interest I mentioned here is “Chinese”public interst.

    “I thought you admitted Yasukuni was the religious institution. A change of mind? So what is your argument for your new claim yasukuni is not religion”

    Yasukuni is the religious INSTITUTION.Itelf is not practicing it’s own religion.It is practicing Shinto.There are many shonto shrine all over the country and nobody is prohibiting PM to visit there at his or her private capacity.There is no change of mind on my side not new claim presented here.

    “In my view, there might be a time that PM should visit Yasukuni for a political reason when for instance, he/she see it fit to destabilize Chinese domestic situation. A state man needs to hold every card in his/her hand.”

    I thought you were promoting PM’s constitutional rights,not to destabilize Chinese domestic situation.New claim?Anyway I don’t see Chinese domestic situation is being destabilized by Yasukuni visits,instead it had some political feud here.

    “Now Yasukuni is religious institution, a change of mind again?”

    That’s what I have been saying from the very beginning.It is YOU,who are saying “Yasukuni is a religion”.

    “In the same sense, those people I cited are responsible for that and yet honored, and no problem arises., because its people are not praising the evil aspect they brought about, and people know it.
    I am expanding the context to see the peculiar context Japanese are facing. Unfortunately it seems you are not aware of it.”

    I am very much aware of it.That is why I’m not offending people going to Yasukuni for tributing their war buddys.My criticism is solely upon Yasukuni shrine itself and the politician,especially PM going there.

    “You said PM is not included in “people” in the constitution”
    Never.I said PM can not be included as “people” in ordinal sense,not constituional sense.Quote me in that very phrase in the past comments if you can find it.

    “A washing-machine was a symbol of a technology for a housewife, but it is not anymore.”

    Because it is outdated now(It can be said it is a symbol of technology in the 60’s).But Yasukuni is not.It is still valid.

    “The general public does not give a damn about Yasukuni. People know it is a shrine for the war dead in general, and people are aware that there is a controversy”

    If they are aware that there is a controversy,then you could say there is a concern based on the negative public image that circulates both inside and outside of the country.

    “And if Yasukuni has such a evil image, why not the people protest just as they did against OM”

    Some do.

    “創価学会、成長の家、PL教団、and other religious organization is not doing enough to change to meet the current state of Japanese society. Some politician visits their church to pray. No problem as far as it is done in private capacity.”

    That’s why they are all considered as cults.And I do see problem with the politician associating with there religions.That is not constitutional,however it does effects ny voting behaviour.

    “But what is RELIGIOUS FEUD you are talking about?”

    The one like we’ve been discudding in the passing days.You know there are law suits that reach the supreme courts on these cases.

    “IAceface said)Well, Sometimes rights aren’t right, and lefts aren’t wrong.”
    “That is true. But in this particular case, the argument was wrong. ”

    That’s your opinion,not mine.

    “he(Tachibana) also needs to explain why the visit Arlington does not counts as the affirmation of the Vietnam war, why visiting Mao
    museum does not count as the praise of culutual revolution.etc.”

    1)Tachibana is talking about Japan and Tokyo trial and Yasukuni and San Francisco treaty.Nothing else
    2)No American nor Chinese were convicted as international war crimina court.
    3)Lack of historical clarity in certain issue in Chinese history in 20th century is differnt topic and that too is under criticism from (mostly)abroad.But that is not what Tachibana is accusing in this short piece devoted for PM’s Yasukuni visit.

    “My point is when you present the thesis, you need to back it up with reasons. when your reason is criticized, you need to answer with reason. You can not just repeat the old claim”

    That is what I have been doing in this series of comments.Aren’t you the one with repeating the “old”claim,because you keep finding new one in my post.

    “It is as a bad taste as Tomoijro’s and as bad as me saying nobody’s calling you a troll ….yet either.”

    And I repeat again.Neither Tomojiro nor I had called anyone a “troll”….Yet.

  84. ponta said

    Aceface
    Thanks.
    Let me ask you then.
    (1)Does PM have the constitutional right to faith?
    (2)Does PM have the the constitutional right to visit Yasukuni?

    The right protected by the article 20 is the freedom to faith, freedom to religious act, freedom to assemble religious organization.
    PM does exactly the same act when he visits Ise shrine and when visit Yasukuni shrine.
    You can not tell the difference from the outward behavior. And he said he visited Ise and Yasukuni to pray. To me it is reasonable to assume the both are religious act, because it involved praying for the super-natural entity.

    (3)If PM has the constitutional right, and yet it should be suspended, what is the compelling reason to
    overturn his constitutional right. You once made a claim to the effect if it is against the public interest, his right should be suspended. What is the public interest that justify the suspension of such a n strong right as his constitutional right to faith?

    ……………………………………………

    I never said the public interest I mentioned here is “Chinese”public interest.

    So what is it? I have asked you again and again.

    The one like we’ve been discussing in the passing days. You know there are law suits that reach the supreme courts on these cases

    Do you call legal disputes religious feud?

    1)Tachibana is talking about Japan and Tokyo trial and Yasukuni and San Francisco treaty. Nothing else

    So he needs to show why he is justified in linking PM’s visit with Tokyo trial and SF treaty, when people who visits Yasukuni rarely link Yasukuni with Tokyo trial and SF treaty and when PM explicitly say he accept the judgement of Tokyo trial and SF treaty.
    They just want to console the souls of the war-dead.
    When people just want to pray for the war-dead, and it is justified, and when PM says he just wants to pray for the war dead, it is not reasonable at all to infer that he is worshipping the criminality of A-criminal when he visit Yasukuni.

    2)No American nor Chinese were convicted as international war criminal court.

    Right, that does not mean that they can worship the crimes they committed, no? People are not worshipping the crimes people committed when they honor them. If so, why is it you can worship the leaders under which innocent people were killed in China, and in Korea, but not in Japan?

    “You said PM is not included in “people” in the constitution”
    Never.I said PM can not be included as “people” in ordinal sense,not constitutional sense.Quote me in that very phrase in the past comments if you can find it.

    ponta 75

    (1) Freedom to faith is guaranteed to all by the constitution.
    (2) PM is included in “all”

    For your reference:

    Article 20:
    1)
    Freedom of religion is guaranteed to all. No religious organization shall receive any privileges from the State, nor exercise any political authority.
    2)
    No person shall be compelled to take part in any religious acts, celebration, rite or practice.
    3)
    The State and its organs shall refrain from religious education or any other religious activity.

    Aceface 76

    PM is not included in the “people”,for the reason I’ve said in above.

    “A washing-machine was a symbol of a technology for a housewife, but it is not anymore.”

    Because it is outdated now(It can be said it is a symbol of technology in the 60’s).But Yasukuni is not. It is still valid.

    I disagree. But it is difficult either to affirm or negate the claim. So I let it be.

    “創価学会、成長の家、PL教団、and other religious organization is not doing enough to change to meet the current state of Japanese society. Some politician visits their church to pray. No problem as far as it is done in private capacity.”

    That’s why they are all considered as cults. And I do see problem with the politician associating with there religions. T hat is not constitutional, however it does effects ny voting behaviour.

    My example was not good. Islam, Christianity, Buddhism organizations are not doing enough to change the current state of Japanese society. Do you call them cults?
    And is politician associating with the religion not constitutional? If so, why? Do people win when they sue the politicians for the violation of the constitution?
    If you mean, politician associating with the religion not unconstitutional, then why it is not unconstitutional?
    In my opinion, their freedom to faith is guaranteed by the constitution just like the freedom to visit in private capacity any shrine including Yasukuni is guaranteed by the constitution.

  85. Aceface said

    Let me ask you then.
    (1)Does PM have the constitutional right to faith?
    (2)Does PM have the the constitutional right to visit Yasukuni?

    Both are “Yes”.But I still say PM should suspend the Yasukuni visit.Since he can visit any shinto shrine in his own private capacity,Insisting on Yasukuni would means his primal motivation is not religious.

    “You can not tell the difference from the outward behavior. And he said he visited Ise and Yasukuni to pray. To me it is reasonable to assume the both are religious act, because it involved praying for the super-natural entity.”

    Then PM’s act is neither tranparent nor has enough accountability.

    “If PM has the constitutional right, and yet it should be suspended, what is the compelling reason to
    overturn his constitutional right. ”

    If you are siting in a crowded train and see an elderly citizen come by,you may give the elderly the seat you are sitting,even though you may have legal right of sitting there for occupying it first.The announcement in the train is requiring that to the passengers even though that is against legal “rights”.Our society is made not just legal rights,certain measures must be taken fot the benefit of the society,that includes suspencion of certain rights by certain individuals in certain occasion.I think Yasukuni is such a case.

    “You once made a claim to the effect if it is against the public interest, his right should be suspended. What is the public interest that justify the suspension of such a n strong right as his constitutional right to faith? ”

    Our nation is build upon the number of political arrangements.Including constitution and San Fransisco Treaty that enables us to be the member of the international society we’ve once ostracized.Visiting Yasukuni by Japanese PM is against the broad wish and request from international community and giving the wrong impression of we are vioalting the spirit of SF treaty.It will disturb the fundamental value we state at the foundation of the post-war Japan,and that is against pulic interest in any measure.

    “Do you call legal disputes religious feud?”

    It is you who are bringing up the religious aspect of the PM’s right of visiting Yasukuni by bringing up the comparison with the Christianity,Buddhism and so on by stating Yasukuni is a “religion”.

    “So he(Tachibana) needs to show why he is justified in linking PM’s visit with Tokyo trial and SF treaty, when people who visits Yasukuni rarely link Yasukuni with Tokyo trial and SF treaty and when PM explicitly say he accept the judgement of Tokyo trial and SF treaty.
    They just want to console the souls of the war-dead.”

    Yasukuni honors war criminals,Yuushukan writes in exhibit that they are matyrs.That is against the judgement of Tokyo trial.PM Abe did explicitly say he accept the jusgement of Tokyo trial and SF treaty only after he was criticized,No?Anyway when politicians say one thing and do something that seems paradoxal,they usually get criticized that may not happen to ordinary people,but happens to the politicians.

    “If so, why is it you can worship the leaders under which innocent people were killed in China, and in Korea, but not in Japan?”

    You are not a war criminal as long as you are not convicted in international court on war crime.Anyway,in Korea(South) there is memorial dedicated for the matyrs of Kuwangjyu massacre in Kuwangjyu and two ex-presidents were sentenced guilty in court for treason.
    In Taiwan(Republic of China,that is)had recently removed some of Chiang Kai Shek pictures and renamed and changed the character of the National Chiang Kai Shek memorial hall into National Taiwan Democracy Hall,dedicating innocent people killed in Taiwan.
    I see no action in China on these,but I also see no reason why we should have China as bench marking.

    “Islam, Christianity, Buddhism organizations are not doing enough to change the current state of Japanese society. Do you call them cults?”

    You are now making new claim,No I wouldn’t call them “cults”,and I wouldn’t claim they are not doing enough to change themselves in a manner of the current state of Japanese society,just as I wouldn’t say so with Shinto.You are confusing “a religion” and “a religious institution” again,either intentionally or unintentionally.

    “In my opinion, their freedom to faith is guaranteed by the constitution just like the freedom to visit in private capacity any shrine including Yasukuni is guaranteed by the constitution.”

    That still do not justifies PM visit to the Yasukuni.And if any of these politicians actually think that the current opinions against Yasukuni visit are violating their freedom guaranteed by the constitution,How come none of them bring this to the court?

  86. ponta said

    Aceface
    Thanks

    Let me ask you then.
    (1)Does PM have the constitutional right to faith?
    (2)Does PM have the the constitutional right to visit Yasukuni?

    Both are “Yes”.

    I am glad you finally changed your opinion, agreeing with me. That is what I have been arguing from the strat.

    Since he can visit any shinto shrine in his own private capacity,Insisting on Yasukuni would means his primal motivation is not religious.

    The motivation does not affect his right.
    And you are just speculating his motivation.Yasukuni is the shrine the deceased promised to meet.

    Then PM’s act is neither tranparent nor has enough accountability.

    I suggest you to reconstruct your artument here.

    If you are siting in a crowded train….

    That is understandable argument. It means many things must be put into considerations besides his right to visit Yasukuni in his decision.

    Our nation is build upon the number of political arrangements. Including constitution and San Fransisco Treaty that enables us to be the member of the international society we’ve once ostracized. Visiting Yasukuni by Japanese PM is against the broad wish and request from international community and giving the wrong impression of we are vioalting the spirit of SF treaty.It will disturb the fundamental value we state at the foundation of the post-war Japan,and that is against pulic interest in any measure.

    To some extent I agree. But it is not the case anyone can impose their impression and you have to accept it.
    You can explain what it mean for Japanese to worship the war-dead. Just as you tried hard to make misunderstanding cleared as for the comfort women.

    “In my opinion, their freedom to faith is guaranteed by the constitution just like the freedom to visit in private capacity any shrine including Yasukuni is guaranteed by the constitution.”

    That still do not justifies PM visit to the Yasukuni.And if any of these politicians actually think that the current opinions against Yasukuni visit are violating their freedom guaranteed by the constitution, How come none of them bring this to the court?

    His act is justified legally. Whatever PM does, he is
    subject to political criticism.
    Who claimed the the current opinion violates their freedom?
    ……………………………………….

    The debators who call someone “a troll” for no reason, and who kept saying nobody has call me a troll yet, have argued against my thesis that PM has the right to visit Yasukuni in private capacity as long as he does not violate the separation of the religion and the state, because the faith to religion is guraranteed to all, just as he can visit to Buddhist temple in private capacity to pray at the funeral.

    They sometimes have argued that Yasukuni and praying at Yasukuni is not religious,though they admit Yasukuni is a religious insitution and Yasukuni is practicing shinto, which is religion.
    I have argued the the praying for the war-dead is a religious act because it involve the worship of the super-natural enitity.
    It is not unusual for Japanse to worship the dead.
    As someone pointed out, Japanese worship ancestry. Naturally they worship the dead.
    And there is anotehr aspect to worship the dead.
    When a car accident happen and someone was killed in front of your house, many Japanese would feel uneasy if they didn’t pray for the dead, or at least they would want to purify the place even if the man killed happend to be a cruel murderer.The killing happened in your sphere, some ritual must be done.
    JAL airplane crashed at Osutaka mountain twenty years ago. People still visit Osutaka to pray for the dead. it might be there was a criminal killed in the accident. but people are not concerned about how they lived concerned about the fact they are killed unusual way.
    So it makes sense Japanese want to pay tribute to the war-dead. PM is a Japanese.
    It is even possible to see Yasukuni as the one where they enshrined whoever was killed in their sphere related to the crazy war game just as the cases I mentioned above.

    The opponents of PM’s visit have argued the PM have no right to visit Yasukuni where A-criminals are enshrined.
    It is really offensive if he worships the criminality of A-crimanals.
    But few would worship the leaders like, for instance Mao, Sygmand Lyee, etc for that.
    People visit Yasukuni to pray for the war dead, not to praise for their criminality.
    PM, for instance, Koizumi explicity acceptted the judgement of Tokyo tial.

    Some people link Yasukuni with the symbol of the religion that oppressed other religions. Christianity was like that,it used to burn people alive if the peson turned out to be a pagan.Yasukuni was not doing things like that, but it is true there was a times where peole are forced to worship the shrine.(It is ironical that people are forced not to worship Yasukuni now.) But more than 60 years have passed since the practice stopped. A washing machine was a symbol of techonology just 50 years ago, but it is not anymore because it is not function as a tool to be called “techonology”.
    Some people want to link the Japanese flag and national anthem with Japan’s mitarism and Yasukuni with the oppression no matter what; though there is no fact Japan has been militarist and yasukuni has been oppressing other religions for more than 60 years.
    That is the very convinient way to attak the politicians. But I hope peope will not start attacking and oppressing Chrisitian politicians, Buddhist politicians like that.

    I think they need to explain why they are justified in blaiming X, by linking it with Y, though X has had no function, no trait, no sign shared by Y for a long time;otherwise,people can blame something for what it functioned in the past for ever.

    In my judement, China is playing the vital role in PM’s decision not to visit.
    Nakasone quitted because of China’s request.
    Cculutural difference make it harder for Chinese people to understand the ritual. Chinese spit on the crimial for thousands years, Japanese fear and worship the dead no matter who. It is vital to explain the meaning we give to the dead is different.
    Besides, it is very convinient for China to exploit Yasukuni as their symbolic target of ultra nationalism. Nationalism is the CCP’s new ideology when few believe in communism. And when fueled by nationalism, rational explanatoin is hard to work.

    Having said that it does not mean Yasukuni have made sufficient efforts to make misunderstanding cleared. Yasukuni can state clearly that the war is evil whoever iniated, which is the beliefs shared by almost all the Japanese people. and probably it can do much more, listening sincerely to the criticism;I believe that is a important prat of religion.

    My conclusion is the same.
    PM has the right to visit Yasukuni in private capacity.
    It is desirable that he account for his action fully so that no body misunderstand he is praising the crimianality of the A-crime and people understand it is not unusual at all for Japanese to worhship the war-dead. But against hysterical wind, there is nothing you can do. In that sense, Abe’s tactics might have been not bad.
    Political considerations comes in his decision as a matter of fact. He decides, everything ,icluding his religioius desire to vist, considerd.

    I can understand the Japanese people who oppose PM’s visit. Whatever they say , their main concerns are international politics;Japan has been comformist and accomodating to the international tide of the times.
    “I sencond X, I agree with Y” have been proved to be
    useful way to survive. Kiss-the-big power’s ass no matter what have been proved to be sucessful.

    That is important. I don’t dislike the idea.
    Grangted there is a time when we have to kow-tow, it is important to see what is right and what is wrong
    in the pressures from abroad.

    .

  87. Aceface said

    “I am glad you finally changed your opinion, agreeing with me. That is what I have been arguing from the strat.”

    I never changed my mind.I wrote the reason before.My word of saying “PM has no right “is purely the way of the word,not mentioning his constitutional rights.I do not agree with you in a sense that visiting Yasukuni is a right decision and PM’s right should be suspended from doing so.

    “Who claimed the the current opinion violates their freedom?”

    I think it was PM Miki.

    “The debators who call someone “a troll” for no reason, and who kept saying nobody has call me a troll yet”

    No one is actually calling you a troll yet.Is that what you’ve been called in the other site like The Marmot Hole?

    ” because the faith to religion is guraranteed to all, just as he can visit to Buddhist temple in private capacity to pray at the funeral.”

    And as I’ve said visiting any buddhist temple and visiting Yasukuni is two different thing.They can not be compared.

    “Some people link Yasukuni with the symbol of the religion that oppressed other religions. Christianity was like that,it used to burn people alive if the peson turned out to be a pagan.Yasukuni was not doing things like that”

    “That is the very convinient way to attak the politicians. But I hope peope will not start attacking and oppressing Chrisitian politicians, Buddhist politicians like that.”

    You are confusing politics and religion again here.
    It seems your favourite(and only)idea on this issue….

    People are criticizing Yasukuni not as the symbol of the religion(which is Shinto),but the policy of the government at the time symbolized by Yasukuni,imposing state shinto upon all the religion and oppress those who do not obey the policy.People are also criticizing the character of Yasukuni as the religious institution,that honor the war dead and justifying the past invasions,Again not criticizing shinto.

    “It is even possible to see Yasukuni as the one where they enshrined whoever was killed in their sphere related to the crazy war game just as the cases I mentioned above.”

    Not really.The examples you’ve reffred are both pure accidents.War is not.

    “culutural difference make it harder for Chinese people to understand the ritual. Chinese spit on the crimial for thousands years, Japanese fear and worship the dead no matter who. It is vital to explain the meaning we give to the dead is different.”

    It is neither culture nor ritual that the Chinese(and many in Japan and the world) are criticizing.What matters here is what those who are honored at Yasukuni did before they died and what does it represent to some.(Including visiting PM).

    “Besides, it is very convinient for China to exploit Yasukuni as their symbolic target of ultra nationalism. Nationalism is the CCP’s new ideology when few believe in communism. And when fueled by nationalism, rational explanatoin is hard to work.”

    I wouldn’t call that an”ultra”for that is a natural emotion for the victim,is it not?
    and You can not point other’s wrong while justifies your own(something you seemed to like doing all the time)The two wrongs would not make one right.

    “Having said that it does not mean Yasukuni have made sufficient efforts to make misunderstanding cleared.”

    Not by the current exhibit at Yuusyukan and war criminal being honored there.
    Anyway these are your wishful thinking,by no means reflecting the state of Yasukuni at the present.

    “My conclusion is the same.
    PM has the right to visit Yasukuni in private capacity.
    It is desirable that he account for his action fully so that no body misunderstand he is praising the crimianality of the A-crime and people understand it is not unusual at all for Japanese to worhship the war-dead. .”

    No,not really.You never said “It is desirable that he account for his action fully so that no body misunderstand he is praising ”

    “But against hysterical wind, there is nothing you can do. In that sense, Abe’s tactics might have been not bad.
    Political considerations comes in his decision as a matter of fact. He decides, everything ,icluding his religioius desire to vist, considerd”

    So,now you talk “tactics”.What about Abe’s all too important”freedom of faith” you’ve been crusading.and where are those politiicans bringing this to the court,fighting for the dignity of his souls?
    I don’t believe an inch of this “religious freedom” argument regarding Yasukuni if I see no credible explanation from either the PM nor some LDP old guard.

    “I sencond X, I agree with Y” have been proved to be
    useful way to survive. Kiss-the-big power’s ass no matter what have been proved to be sucessful.”

    If that is your take,that’s fine.But you do admit that the PM’s suspencion of visiting Yasukuni serves “public interest”now.Right,Ponta?

  88. ponta said

    If that is your take,that’s fine.But you do admit that the PM’s suspencion of visiting Yasukuni serves “public interest”now.Right,Ponta?

    It really depends.
    In a legal sense, no. You need more stronger reason to suspend his right.
    In a political sense, again it depends on the internatioal situation.If the hysterical chinese nationalism is strong, and there is no reason to stimulate it more, and there is a sign that it will affect Japan’s economy, and security, it is Japan’s interest that comes heavily in his decision even if their claim is not justified.

    If there is no effect in economy and security, and if the Chinese people understand the meaning Japanese people visit for Yasukuni, there is no public inteterest to suspend his visit.

    As for the rest of the comment, well…
    I don’t want to get involved in “you said, No I don’t” type of the argument. Let’s leave the judgment to the readership.
    But you should notice, once you admitted it is his constitutional right, it weighs heavily. At the least, it is legally right, permissible for PM to visit Yasukuni.
    And to deny such an important legal right as the freedom to faith, you need a strong reasons.
    Linking arbitrarily Yasukuni with the symbol of the religion oppressing other religion when it has not oppressing for more than 60 years and blaming it is not strong enough to overturn his right.
    It is easy to see it, (I hope my argument stands.)
    It was not just Yasukuni but a state shinto that praciticed the oppression of people’s faith. (People in colonized countries were forced to visit the shrine:though they could still hold their own religion)
    Christianity oppressed other religions.
    You can link it with the (past) oppressive religion.
    But you can not blame people visiting the church praciticing Chrisitianity and deprive his right.

    And it is important to realise the right involved is the right to religion. if the his right to religion is denied just by speculating that his motive is political, there is no meaning that the constitution has approved the the right to religion;You can oppress any religion by that. I am concerned that many criticims against PM’s visit fall into this category.

    In my eye, for PM’s decision to visit Yasukuni, China’s move alawys play a big role. And I respect your policy and your type of nationalism of kissing the ass.

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