AMPONTAN

Japan from the inside out

Britain’s “Operation Nipoff”

Posted by ampontan on Saturday, March 17, 2007

Nipoff
JAPAN IS repeatedly reminded by the Western media of its sins and brutal behavior during the Second World War. The comfort women story is just the latest of these; the stories of the Nanking Massacre in China and the Bataan Death March in the Philippines have been told for decades.

These were the stories told by the victors. We know some of the stories that have gotten glossed over in the West, such as the one about the Japanese prisoners held in equally brutal conditions in the Soviet Union for 11 years after the war. But what stories have the victors neglected to tell?

Some of the tales are starting to come out now. Christopher Bayly and Tim Harper have just published a book in Britain called Forgotten Wars: The End of Britain’s Asian Empire. The book is 674 pages long; they must have forgotten a lot of them. For example:

Two years after Japan surrendered in 1945, there were still some 80,000 Japanese prisoners of war in the hands of British South East Asia. General Douglas MacArthur wanted to repatriate them and dissolve Japan’s broken army, but Britain refused. It preferred cheap conscript labour and seemed to enjoy humiliating these legions of the lost. They existed on only half a normal PoW diet; men were routinely forced to kneel and beg their captors for food. Nearly 9,000 of them died of malnutrition or disease. The last remnants of ‘Operation Nipoff’, as it was malignly known, didn’t get home until as late as 1948.

One might try to excuse British behavior by arguing that they were just getting back at the Japanese for the earlier cruelties they suffered. But that is, after all, just an excuse; Japan had been literally flattened and burnt out in defeat and unconditionally surrendered. Revenge and the pound of flesh had already been taken.

Even more remarkable is the book’s tacit admission that despite its utter defeat, Japan managed to attain one of its war objectives:

The core of the Empire that seemed to make Britain great began at the end of the Suez Canal and ran as a gigantic arc through Asia. Japan’s aggression fractured that arc. But in 1945, London wanted to put the old world back together again….It thought we could go back to colonial business as usual. Even Attlee’s sainted government took time to realise that there could be no going back, that years in the shadow or grip of Tokyo control had changed hearts, minds and ambitions forever.

The Japanese started out with the intention of ending the European colonization of Asia (albeit replacing it with their own). Bayly and Harper seem to think they ultimately succeeded in ending European rule. The tragedy for everyone is the means by which that success was achieved.

NOTE: I read this review in the print edition of the Japan Times. It is not online at that site, because it originally appeared in The Observer. The review is available on the website of The Guardian, Britain’s premier newspaper of the Left. Unfortunately, however, the complete text is not on line. The link to The Guardian’s review is here. Please note that the book is about Britain’s involvement with Asia as a whole; there is not much more in the review about Japan specifically.

Add to: Facebook | Digg | Del.icio.us | Stumbleupon | Reddit | Blinklist | Twitter | Technorati | Yahoo Buzz | Newsvine

81 Responses to “Britain’s “Operation Nipoff””

  1. Infimum said

    I am getting worried about you being labeled as a Japan apologist or something now that you talked about the RAA and then this.

    Anyway, does the book happen to cite アーロン収容所 by Yuji Aida, which I think is the most famous account of such experience (though not about physical abuse) among the Japanese.

  2. madne0 said

    The number of deaths in the Bataan Death March alone is similar to the entire “Operation Nipoff”.
    Still, inexcusable. Disgusting behavior on the part of the British.

  3. Joel said

    I blogged a bunch of short passages from Forgotten Armies back in March and April 2006. Fascinating book.

  4. James A said

    This reminds me of Britain’s treatment of prisoners in Africa during the 1950’s, such as the suppression of the Mau Mau. It just shows that often victors can be just as bad, if not worse, than the losers. There was a reason why so many countries decided to kick the British out after WWII ended.

    Abiola Lapite posted an excellent article on the British Empire’s misdeeds in Africa on his blog.

  5. ampontan said

    Infimum: Actually, I didn’t talk about the RAA (if that just means the postwar group), I was talking about the wartime women.

    The only people who would call me an apologist are the blame Japan forever types. Besides, there’s nothing that they can really call me on. It’s not as if I say things like Bataan or Nanking never happened.

    Besides, they happened during the war. What’s the British excuse from 46-48?

  6. klutz said

    Yes, but as our friend the Marmot will surely note. Koreans are the victims and we should only worry about them.

  7. […] You mean the Japanese weren’t the only ones abusing POWs in the Pacific War [Ampontan]? Share and Enjoy: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share […]

  8. jion999 said

    The reason why the propaganda of distorted history by CCP and Korea about Japanese war crimes has still worked in the world is they imitate the propaganda of US and Britain. Winners were justice, and losers were evil, that idea was just created by Allied force. The point is, though the real winners have stopped to criticize losers with new fabricated propaganda, countries which did not defeat Japan have tried to use this propaganda again and again. In China, Nationalists fought against Japan mainly, not communists. But communists fabricated the story that they defeated Japan and exaggerate Japanese war crimes and use this propaganda as a diplomatic weapon. Korean is worse. They were Japanese and fought as Japanese against Allied force. But they have fabricated that Korean was an almighty victim like Jews and used this propaganda so many times.

  9. tomojiro said

    Jion999
    You are going to far. There is more than just “exagerated” by chinese. Have you ever heard of Unit 731 or bio-chemical warfare by the IJA?

    And I don’t think that the Korean’s were just happy when they were counted as “Japanese”.

    Who defeated whom is not that relevant.

  10. rose said

    I agree with Jion999.

    The real problem is that whatever we talk about Japan in connection to WWII, we are forced to discuss it within, or around, the framework set by conguerors of the war.
    If we go outside of it, then we’d be almost automatically labeled as “Japanese nationalists” or “ignorant” even if our opinions are based on historical facts.

    To justify what conquerors of the war did, they needed to create and spread this framework (propaganda in the past, now distorted history) in which Japan and Japanese were terribly evil and should have been annihilated at any cost.

    >You are going to far. There is more than just “exagerated” by chinese. Have you ever heard of Unit 731 or bio-chemical warfare by the IJA?

    I have to wonder what the big deal is about Unit 731 even if all the propaganda about it were factual. You are labeling Japan in connection to WWII “EVIL” by the image they had successfully engraved on your mind. My point is that “that image” can be deceptive because it is probably originated from the propaganda.
    If 80,000 Japanese civilians killed versus 80,000 civilians killed somewhere else have different meaning to you when you look at it objectively, you are most likely tricked into believing that “Japanese is evil no matter what”.

  11. The Marmot said

    Yes, but as our friend the Marmot will surely note. Koreans are the victims and we should only worry about them.

    In point of fact, I would not note that. Nor would I disagree with the hypocrisy of Western countries—and especially the British—calling the Japanese to account for their imperial misdeeds. I’ve bashed Britain, Germany, Russia and the United States plenty for this on my own blog.

    ampontan—I might take issue with this conclusion:

    The Japanese started out with the intention of ending the European colonization of Asia. Bayly and Harper seem to think they succeeded in the end. The tragedy for everyone is the means by which that success was achieved.

    No doubt that the Japanese played a major role in ending European imperialism in Asia. And in fact, I don’t doubt that once it became obvious that a final clash with the United States was unavoidable, the Japanese aimed to end European imperialism in Asia. But doesn’t that make it seem as if the Japanese endeavor, therefor, was a war of liberation? It seems to me that the aim was to end European imperialism in Asia and replace it with an imperialism of their own. Moreover, wouldn’t the Japanese had been content to live with European imperialism in Asia if the Europeans had been content to allow Japan to carve out an empire of its own in China?

  12. cm said

    Who started the Pacific war? It wasn’t the British.
    Japan should count itself very lucky, since they got off very lightly – very few war criminals were prosecuted.

  13. ampontan said

    “Japan should count itself very lucky, since they got off very lightly – very few war criminals were prosecuted.”

    Three and a half million people dead, every major city and the national infrastructure utterly destroyed, Hiroshima and Nagasaki A-bombed, Tokyo firebombed with another 100,000 killed, the economy wiped out, seven or so years of military occupation, and you think they “got off very lightly” because very few war criminals were prosecuted?

    That’s an interesting viewpoint.

  14. jion999 said

    Tomojiro

    Thank you for your comments. But I can not agree with your some comments.

    “Have you ever heard of Unit 731 or bio-chemical warfare by the IJA?”

    I know the existence of Unit 731. But I do not believe bio-chemical warfare by Japan. Do you believe the article of Asahi Shinbun with the picture offered by CCP?

    Do you know that CCP and North Korea made a huge campaign accusing the US of using germ warfare during the Korean War? It was confirmed to be a fabricated charge.

    Anyhow, though the experiments and stocks of bio-chemical weapons by Japan are criticized, the experiments of A-bombs on cities by US are not criticized at all. I mean it is a result of propaganda by winners.

    “I don’t think that the Korean’s were just happy when they were counted as Japanese. ”

    I did not write Korean was happy to be counted as Japanese. But it is true that some Koreans were “brainwashed” as Japanese like the other Japanese and fought patriotically against Allied force.

    You know, even many patriotic Japanese changed the political idea completely after the war and started to criticize the past Japanese policy or pretend that they were against the war.
    Nobody likes to keep standing on the side of loser.
    Most Korean historians tried to fabricate the history which says Korean was a victim, not an accomplice.

    After Horie was arrested, Miyauchi berayed him and started to criticize him. This is a human being.

    “Who defeated whom is not that relevant.”

    It is very relevant. The history has been written by winners only.
    I understand you are humanist.
    There have been a lot of war crimes in the world history.
    The point is it is nonsense to criticize the war crimes of losers only.
    Propaganda means to hide our crimes and criticize the enemies’.
    Because it is propaganda to attack enemy, they never forgive you even if you apologize.

  15. jion999 said

    “wouldn’t the Japanese had been content to live with European imperialism in Asia if the Europeans had been content to allow Japan to carve out an empire of its own in China?”

    It sounds Japanese was too greedy. Japan had been content to live with European imperialism in Asia for many years before 1929.
    After the world depression of 1929, British Empire, French empire and US which owned big territory with big markets and natural resources started to introduce block economy policy to shut out foreign products. That is the reason why industrialized countries without markets and resources started to expand the territories.
    Now, we do not have to invade other countries because of WTO. If OPEC declares to stop to export crude oil to US, she must invade Saudi Arabia.

    It is nonsense to believe the country which invades fast must be evil.

  16. jion999 said

    Sorry. The above comment is a mistake.

    The Marmot

    “But doesn’t that make it seem as if the Japanese endeavor, therefor, was a war of liberation? It seems to me that the aim was to end European imperialism in Asia and replace it with an imperialism of their own.”

    That is true. The liberation of Asia form European was Japanese propaganda. The liberation of China was propaganda of US and Britain. After US and Britain defeated Japan, winner’s propaganda has been taught as history.

    “wouldn’t the Japanese had been content to live with European imperialism in Asia if the Europeans had been content to allow Japan to carve out an empire of its own in China?”

    It sounds Japanese was too greedy. Japan had been content to live with European imperialism in Asia for many years before 1929.
    After the world depression of 1929, British Empire, French empire and US which owned big territory with big markets and natural resources started to introduce block economy policy to shut out foreign products. That is the reason why industrialized countries without markets and resources started to expand the territories.
    Now, we do not have to invade other countries because of WTO. If OPEC declares to stop to export crude oil to US, she must invade Saudi Arabia.

    It is nonsense to believe the country which invades fast must be evil.

  17. ampontan said

    “But doesn’t that make it seem as if the Japanese endeavor, therefor, was a war of liberation? It seems to me that the aim was to end European imperialism in Asia and replace it with an imperialism of their own.”

    Let’s see if the following is helpful. You probably know most of this, but a comparative timeline might be beneficial. This involves many different strands coming together over a period of many years.

    Anyone is of course free to disagree or add stuff. Also, these are of course not straight line progressions.

    1. From 1600 to 1868, when the shoguns ruled, Japan shut itself off from the outside world. As with all rulers, the energy dissipated over time. They got progressively weaker in the 19th century.

    2. During this same time, the Europeans colonized Asia and Japan was next on the list. The British and Russians in particular really screwed around in the waters off Japan. In fact, there was a military incident in 1863 between the British and the Satsuma domain in what is now Kagoshima. A British merchant was killed for disrespecting the daimyo, but the Brits thought seven warships bombarding and destroying most of the city was a reasonable response after their demand for compensation in addition to the execution of the murderers was turned down.

    Also remember the two Opium Wars in China which the British won, 1830s and 1860s, and Hong Kong and Macao.

    3. The combination of the weakening shogunate and the threatening Europeans caused a lot of people to get more interested in a philosophy that already existed, called Sonno Joi, or Revere the Emperor and Expel the Barbarians. Even though the Emperor hasn’t been a serious political figure for a long time, he always has been a symbol of state and a rallying point in times of trouble. As for expel the barbarians, I think a bit of that went on in Korea, too.

    4. Commodore Perry came barging into Tokyo uninvited in the middle of all this, and I’m sure you can imagine the commotion that caused. Further highlighted the weakness of the shogunate and emphasized the strength of the foreigners. This also led to several unequal commercial treaties, in which foreigners were given the right to immunity in Japan, i.e., they could commit crimes in Japan but could only be tried by their own courts and not Japanese courts. Also need I mention who got the better end of the commercial terms?

    Often forgotten is that the Russians barged into Nagasaki with the same intentions right after Perry. In fact, it was a race of sorts. The novelist Ivan Goncharov was on board the ship, called the Pallada, and he casually mentions throughout his record of the voyage that it is Japan’s destiny to be treated like China and colonized.

    5. All this culminated in a coup in which the shoguns were deposed, feudalism abandoned, the emperor restored to political prominence (if only symbolically) and a pell-mell rush to create a modern state began. Things that took centuries to happen in the West happened in years or decades in Japan.

    The Japanese also became painfully aware during this time that they were technologically very behind.

    6. The people who lead the coup, and many of the dynamic men of action and thinkers of the period, were samurai. In other words, they were military men. The rapid creation of a modern state from what would then have been considered a “third world country” in today’s terms, in a very short period of time, required military-type solutions and military-type discipline. One of the reasons for all the coups in the third world is that the military are the only ones with discipline to get things done.

    7. Put all of these things together–the threat from the Europeans and even the Americans, the rush to catch up, the study of Western technology and “learning”, the use of the West as a model, and the military influence in shaping the new state, and some people got some Big Ideas.

    Some of these were very good, such as “Asia for the Asians!”. But some of the others turned out to be Wrong Ideas. And when the Japanese beat the Russians in the war in 1905, these Big Wrong Ideas went to their heads and started breeding more ideas.

    Of course they were screwing around in Korea before 1905, but so were the Chinese and the Russians.

    So while it did become, “Let’s kick the Europeans out and take their place,” it didn’t start out as a complete concept, it didn’t get that way all at once, and there were reasons why it did get that way.

    This is not an excuse or an apology, but an attempt at a very brief explanation that really requires a book or two, or even a higher-level college course.

    Have at it!

  18. yago said

    It wasn’t “Asia for the Asians!”
    It was “Asia for us!” And however it takes, too.
    Come on, how was the British letting die 12% of the POW’s inexcusable? The Japanese killed half of them! War is war, and knowing how the japanese behaved during the whole war, Britain was quite mild not to have them all executed; as Japan would have done if they had won the war.

    Hey, the Meiji restoration was an admirable feat, and everyone admires how Japan was the only country to avoid colonization by its own means. But that doesn’t absolve them from their cruelty during WW2.

  19. jion999 said

    Yago

    “The Japanese killed half of them!”

    It is wrong. Most of POWS dies because of disease or starve. If they try run away or make riot, they are executed. It is not strange.
    2 millions of Japanese soldiers died. Many starved to death. It was impossible for Japanese to feed POWs well.
    If British had been losing war and consumed most of food, it would have been impossible for British to feed POWs well and death ratio of POW gone up, either.

    And you must not forget. Many POW camps of Japanese force were operated by Korean solders.

  20. jion999 said

    Yago

    “Hong Sa-ik was a Lieutenant General in the Imperial Japanese Army, and the highest-ranking ethnic Korean in Japan to be charged with war crimes. Hong was placed in command of the Japanese camps holding Allied prisoners of war in the Philippines during the latter part of World War II. He was reportedly placed in command of the camps because the Japanese military believed that the guards would respect his orders, as most of the camp guards were of Korean ethnicity.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Sa_Ik

    Japanese is cruel?
    Korean was Japanese in those days.

  21. cm said

    Typical Japanese argument, blame it all on the few Kapo Koreans under the command of Japanese, for their lack of civility. No different really from Japanese blaming all their crimes in Japan against ethnic Koreans. Koreans didn’t “operate” those POW camps, it was the Japanese military who operated those POW camps. It was the Japanese military who let it, and who decided on the crazy policies like the Baatan Death March. Did the Korean pack mules make that policy up too?

  22. cm said

    Here is a site that explains how Koreans were ‘drafted’ (rounded up is more like it) and made to serve the Japanese military as untrained laborers and guard dogs. Under these conditions it wasn’t hard to find the lowest of the lowest Koreans who were eager to please their masters.

    http://www.k2.dion.ne.jp/~rur55/E/epage12.htm

  23. jtb said

    Without trying to defend them for their excesses, it seems this book is only now coming out because of the war in Iraq.

    Follow the money and you’ll find “Abdullah” (i.e., a moslem man, using their own term) behind this, James Cameron’s newest blasphemy, and most other attacks on Western Democracies. BTW, what religious group is swelling the rank of Socialists these days? Yep, you guessed it…

    Look it up on WSJ.com… it was in the print edition last week…

  24. jion999 said

    “the crazy policies like the Baatan Death March”

    The Baatan Death March is typical war propaganda of America.

    A few years ago, Japanese female journalist tried to “march” from Bataan to Manila. Of course she did no die. The reason why so many US soldiers were dead is most of them suffered disease and starve when they surrendered.
    General MacArthur left his soldiers and run away to Australia with his wife. He ordered General Wainwrite not to surrender. So, US solders were forced to fight in jungle for long days and suffered disease and starve. General Wainwrit decided to surrender because many soldiers started to die. But when they surrendered, Japanese soldiers suffered disease and starve, either. When they marched to Manila, Japanese also walked to Manila.

    After the fall of Philippines, US made a huge campaign accusing Japan of forcing Baatan Death March. It is one of the biggest shames for US military history to surrender to Asian. War propaganda of Baatan Death March just hided their shame and made an excuse to hate Japan.

    Propaganda of China and Korea are imitating the propaganda of US and Britain. So it is easier to get sympathy from them even it is a lie. If US and Britain try to deny propaganda of China and Korea, they must deny their own propaganda during the war and face their war crimes.

  25. cm said

    There you go folks, this entire thing is all an international conspiracy against poor Japan. End of debate.

  26. ampontan said

    “how was the British letting die 12% of the POW’s inexcusable?”

    There wasn’t a war going on any more.

  27. tomojiro said

    Jion999

    1).Yes, the history of imperialism is complex, and it was not only Japan who conducted imperial expansion.But it was Japan who in the 1931 broke the international rule and begand to expand after the WW1.

    2).Yes, there were many acts on the allies which could be described as war crimes but it was Japan who begin the war.

    3).Ilegal killings of POW during the Bataan death march was ordered by Tsuji Masanobu.
    http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%BE%BB%E6%94%BF%E4%BF%A1

    After WW2 all this was expsed.
    I think it is better to try to read some authentic history books rather than gathering information only from internet. And if you want to understand history then you should first try to read books written by historians, not by right wing agitator like 東中野修道.

    By the way, in Hata ikuhiko(秦郁彦)’s book 「昭和史の謎を追う」there is a chapter about Japanese Bio-chemical warfare.常石敬一has also written a book about 731, according to him, IJA used gas and biochemical weapon in China during 1940~42 in the Shanxi region.

    There are more.

    Don’t believe books which explains everything with anti-japanese “propaganda” and “conspiracy”. It is a sign that the author can’t explain things logicaly.

  28. yasuyasu said

    It will be impossible to tell modern history without examination of propaganda.

    In addition, I think that people affirming war crimes of 731 corps and Nanjing avoid a logical argument as far as I watch a Japanese net argument.

    At all events it is an occupation army that maintain most information.
    Why will be it that they do not give clear evidence?

  29. jion999 said

    Tomojiro

    As I explained in No. 16, Japanese invasion of 1931 started after the world depression of 1929 and block economy of European countries. It is nonsense to believe the country which invades fast must be evil. If oil is stopped, all of the countries must select to fight or surrender.

    The biggest lesson of WW2 for human being is to establish a free trade system in the world. It is more important to conclude the conflicts of countries in trading and business before it becomes the reason of war. Criticizing losers of war because they started war fast is just propaganda for ignorant people. Such kind idea does not become a good lesson to prevent wars. People start to fight when they need to fight for survival.

    Even in Japan-China war of 1894 and Japan-Russia war 1904, Japan invaded fast but nobody criticizes Japan because Japan won. If you lose, any act of you must be criticized.

    As Ampontan-san mentions in this post, there was an illegal treatments of POWs in the winners’ side, either. If you criticize the war crimes of Japan, you must criticize the crimes of winners, either.

    Regarding the use of biochemical weapon by Japanese, please show me the evidence you found in the books you read. Pictures only? It is meaningless to pick up the names of books.

    I do not know how knowledgeable you are about history. But it is not so good attitude to believe someone gathered information from internet and books of right wings only if he does not agree with your idea.

    If you like to know about propaganda of CCP, I recommend you to read “Mao The unknown Story” by Jung Chang.
    I believe she is not right wing.

  30. Infimum said

    Jion999,

    Your “fast” should be “first”, shouldn’t it? Just for the sake of clarification.

  31. jion999 said

    Infimum

    You are right. sorry.

  32. tomojiro said

    Jion999

    “But it is not so good attitude to believe someone gathered information from internet and books of right wings only if he does not agree with your idea.”

    You are right. That was an hasty conclusion on my side. I appologize for that.

    Both Hata’s book and Tsuneishi’s book is based on documents from the American national archive related to the Unit731(Not all are availabe but some seems to be available already for a long time. The recent news by the Sankei shinbun about the publication of Unit731 seems to be wrong.
    http://tsune-3.cocolog-nifty.com/non_title/2007/01/731_4c75.html

    Another Historian 上田信 is preparing a work based on documents and fieldwork about a chinese village which was destroyed because of japanese bio-chemichal warfare.

    I have read the book by June Chang, but it seems experts from America, England and Japan are now in agreement that it is a rather inaccurate, sensational work. Something like the Iris Chang book.
    http://www.21ccs.jp/china_watching/DirectorsWatching_YABUKI/Directors_watching_19.html
    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v27/n22/nath01_.html

  33. Aceface said

    Hokkaido Univ.has interesting to report on Japanese prisoners in USSR and Mongolia during WW2.(in Japanese)

    Recent Russian studies on Prisoner of WW2.
    http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:2DuhLynxN6AJ:src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/publictn/81/page_3855.pdf+%E3%82%BD%E9%80%A3%E3%80%81%E6%8D%95%E8%99%9C&hl=ja&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=jp

    Japanese prisoner in Mongolia.
    http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:B9KmJVbp9REJ:src-h.slav.hokudai.ac.jp/publictn/81/page_5969.pdf+%E3%83%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B4%E3%83%AB%E3%80%81%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E4%BA%BA%E6%8D%95%E8%99%9C&hl=ja&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=jp

    While they are scholarly interesting I have no grudge upon neither Russians nor Mongolians.I have an apartment in Ulaanbaatar built by the Japanese prisoners enslaved there in the late 40’s.These slave labor cost lives around 15 to 25% of the soldiers,but what’s done is done.And had settled by the bilateral treaty.What is important is our government to deal with the veterans and their families(the veteran groups are suing Tokyo for compensation neither Moscow nor Ulaanbaatar).
    I’m also wondering the credibility of aforementioned Brit book for I have never heard about this”Operation Nipoff”,(and I doubt the credibility of some of The Guardian’s article,you know)Maybe I’m just ignorant but nonetheless I hesitate to jump onto the argument for we are in no position of accusing Commonwealth soldiers of abusing the POWs.I’ll let their historians handle the matter.
    I am aware of Aida’s work(It’s been translated in English long time ago for those interested).But let’s face it.Aida was a twat.Never liked him nor trusted him as an historian.Japan was cozy with the Britsh Empire in Anglo-Japanese alliances and was in no position of claiming liberation of Asia for we were pretty much in the same league until Brit decide to withdraw the alliance.One of the reason was our aggressive expansionism.Japan ends the western rule in Asia could be a result but never a cause.Claiming it is a mere hypocrisy.

    P.S
    I must say I’m beginning to share the same concern with Infimum that our dear sitemaster could be labeled as cursed “Japan Apologist”. Jion999,come to think about that.

  34. rose said

    >It will be impossible to tell modern history without examination of propaganda.

    >At all events it is an occupation army that maintain most information.

    The more I learn about what has really happened before, during, and after the WWII, the more I feel that the war is not actually over for Japanese.

    Not to mention the illegitimacy and injustice of the The International Military Tribunal for the Far East, there are other illegitimate things occupation forces did after the war.

    閉された言語空間―占領軍の検閲と戦後日本  江藤 淳 (著)

    I’d translate the title of the book something like “Enclosed Speech Space – Occupation Forces’ censorship and post-war Japan” authored by Jun Etoh (I’m sure Ampontan would do a better job though).

    This book reveals, with primary sources, the existence of press censorship in Japan the occupation forces implimented after the war. To be honest, I have not read the book but reader reviews at amazon.co.jp tells me a lot of things covered in the book.

    *The censorship was planned and prepared from the early stages of the war

    *There was a propaganda program called War Guilt Information Program that was designed to instill guilt in Japanese people’s minds about WWII

    *The censorship along with the propaganda program were designed to work together and implimented persistently in order to destroy faith of Japanese people in their history and culture – and it was designed to last even after the occupation forces leave

    *This censorship was intentionally hidden thus invisible to the public

    *The censorship allowed the occupation forces to make Japanese believe that Japan had surrendered unconditionally instead of ageeing to demilitarize unconditionally(as in the Potsdam Declaration)

    *大東亜戦争 (The Great East Asia War) was replaced by 太平洋戦争(The Pacific War)

    *Criticizing:

    war crimes by Allied Forces such as civilian massacre
    policies of occupation forces
    illegal activities of the Soviet Union
    Koreans
    Chinese

    was prohibited

    We can see that many of major problems in Japan that we see today stem from the policies of occupation forces. So much for freedom of speech!

    What also bothers me is that there can be fabricated primary source records of alleged wrong-doings of Japanese military to back up their war-time propaganda.

    I don’t know what the kind of Japanese who would do anything to spread stories that Japanese is evil, like Tomojiro, are trying to accomplish, but those people are probably the living proof that what the occupation forces had done after the war still keep working after 60 years have passed.

  35. Peter Guilliam said

    I think it’s worth pointing out that books like the one above are not necessarily intended to change our opinions of who were the “good guys” and who were the “bad guys”, but instead can be viewed simply as research providing new information as to what happened during and after World War II. Since at least the 1970s, historians and others have re-examined events such as the bombing of Dresden, the treatment of Japanese prisoners under the Soviets, Churchill’s plans for the Nazi high command after surrender, and now the postwar treatment of Japanese POWs. The book discussed above is interesting on its own merits; the postwar treatment of Jap POWs is a new wrinkle I previously knew nothing about. Doesn’t change my viewpoint on the merits of defeating Japan.

  36. Aceface said

    “I don’t know what the kind of Japanese who would do anything to spread stories that Japanese is evil, like Tomojiro, are trying to accomplish, but those people are probably the living proof that what the occupation forces had done after the war still keep working after 60 years have passed.”

    And Rose,you are living proof of…..
    I dare not say!

  37. ampontan said

    A reminder: When you disagree, please criticize the ideas and not the person.

  38. Aceface said

    Sorry Big A.

    One thing for Etoh’s work.Yes GHQ did have censorship upon Japanese medias,but left lean of the media is the result of it’s own choice.Etoh was pretty much a man of letters but never a man of the world,literally.

  39. momo said

    Hi,
    This is my first post on this blog.
    When I was researching about the Opium War, all the Britishes I talked to (mostly English teachers) didn’t know about it at all.
    I think most people in the world are living in the selective memories.

  40. rose said

    >Ampontan Said:
    >A reminder: When you disagree, please criticize the ideas and not the person.

    If my comment qualified as criticizing a person, I apologize.

    >Aceface Said:
    >I must say I’m beginning to share the same concern with Infimum that our dear sitemaster could be labeled as cursed “Japan Apologist”.

    Is being a “Japan Apologist” a taboo? What makes it a taboo?
    Is being a “Japan Apologist” in the western world similar to being a 親日派 (Japanese sympathizers)in Korea in that you would get emotional personal attacks even if your reasonings are valid and legitimate?

    >And Rose,you are living proof of…..
    I dare not say!

    What were you going to say? I’m curious.
    My comment about some Japanese people who seem to do anything to make Japan look bad for no obvious reasons was made because I had been wondering what makes those people behave the way they do and the aforementioned book seems to give me a partial answer to my question.

    >One thing for Etoh’s work.Yes GHQ did have censorship upon Japanese medias,but left lean of the media is the result of it’s own choice.

    What makes you think so?
    If occupation forces brainwashed Japanese through media and turned them into excellent candidates for leftists, would the occupation forces qualify as the cause not to mention banning of criticizing their communist neighbors?

    >Etoh was pretty much a man of letters but never a man of the world,literally.

    Will you elaborate on this?

    >Peter Guilliam Said:
    >Doesn’t change my viewpoint on the merits of defeating Japan.

    What is your viewpoint on the merits of defeating Japan? Do the merits outweigh civilian massacre that a lot of westerners seem to ignore? Do you believe bombing of Tokyo and other major cities and the use of atomic bombs were really necessary if the Allied Forces were the “good guys” as you seem to be believing?

    >momo Said:
    >When I was researching about the Opium War, all the Britishes I talked to (mostly English teachers) didn’t know about it at all.
    I think most people in the world are living in the selective memories.

    I think your remark that most people are living in the selective memories is right. Most people don’t care about past wars and what happened a long time ago.
    What they have is merely vague impression, given by others, of what seems to have happened. Sadly most of them would just take it as given and take it to their graves.

  41. tomojiro said

    Rose

    From the wikipedia

    “Today the term “apologist” is colloquially applied in a general manner to include groups and individuals systematically promoting causes, justifying orthodoxies, or denying certain events, even of crimes. Apologists have been characterized as being deceptive, or “whitewashing” their cause, primarily through omission of negative facts (selective perception) and exaggeration of positive ones, techniques of classical rhetoric. When used in this context, the term often has a pejorative meaning. The neutralized substitution of “spokesperson” for “apologist” in conversation conveys much the same sense of “partisan presenter with a weighted agenda,” with less rhetorical freight.”

    I think in the korean context 「親日派」would be used to describe collaboraters, or “traitors” for the Korean nation during the colonial period (it is subjective by nature) .

    A bit different.

    And no my interest in history is, what happened actually, why did this happen, and who was involved? Just to understand contemporary society better.

  42. rose said

    Thank you, Tomojiro, for explaination. I understand the words better.

    I may have misunderstood your interest. I’m sorry.

    I’ve been frustrated with Japanese left-wingers who mislead Japanese (and other neighbors of Japan) and I happened to think that you were one of them.

    My approach to history is opposite from yours…I see major problems of current days, then I seek for their root causes, which makes me look into history.
    But let me tell you…this thing called history is like a can of worms. What I thought was objective material is subjective in nature. I’m disgusted already.

  43. jion999 said

    “Japan apologist”

    Very interesting word.

    A few days ago, I wrote a comment on “DPRK studies” of Mr. Richardson regarding comfort women, and exchanged opinions with him.

    http://www.dprkstudies.org/2007/03/02/the-comfort-women-issue-again/

    After Mr. Richardson’s No. 8 comment, I made a long reply. But it was deleted.

    And he remained the following comment;

    “I won’t allow apologist diatribes that simply create facts.”

    The word “apologist” must be similar to “Revisionist” which Chinese communists preferred to use to criticize USSR in 60s.

    Just after the war, victor’s propaganda is easily introduced as history. But more objective views would come some decades later. People who try to persist old propaganda prefer to criticize the new idea as “apologist” or “revisionist”.

    Ironically, CCP who criticized USSR as “Revisionist” made a great success in economy as “Revisionist”.

    I just understood it is meaningless to discuss with Mr. Richardson any more.

  44. jion999 said

    I think people who prefer to criticize someone as “Japanese write wing” or “left wing” or “Japan apologist” must be careful.

    They must be the same type of some Korean who criticize opened minded Korean as “chinirupa” and kill the freedom of opinion.

  45. Aceface said

    Rose:

    Since there is no argument between you and Tomojiro,there is nothing I have to say,but one thing.

    Etoh Jun was a literary critic when among the writers he manupilate everyone with his politics and when among politicians he acted and talked like a delegade of Japanese literary world.
    I didn’t like that.
    He talked about sacrifycing one’s life for the honor and dignity of the country and and praised Yasukuni but himself eventually comit suicide in the bathtub right after the death of his beloved wife.Not saying that is bad.But he seems to be a man who lived in the virtual realm of words and ideas and not that of down to earth everyman.Or at least that is my opinion on Etoh.
    It’s been six decades since the surrender,we can’t blame everything on New dealers in GHQ now,can we.

    And Japan deserved carpet bombings and two A-bombs for nobody but Japan started the war.

  46. jion999 said

    Aceface

    “Japan started the war” …..again.

    For you and Tomjiro and many Koreans, this might be the biggest main reason why Japan was evil in WW2.

    Because of this reason, Japanese could not be a victim of the war.

    I know this is very simple and easy for ignorant people to understand Japan was evil.

    They do not have to bother with the complicated international politics or economical situation in those days.

    This is a rule of cowboy, not samurai.

    In Japan, both sides must be punished in fighting traditionally. (喧嘩両成敗)

    Was Japan evil either because she attacked Russia first in 1904?

    It is highly appreciated if you make a comment after reading my comment No. 29.

    Tomojiro did not answer to the main point at all.

  47. lirelou said

    I must say that any book that starts off with the premise that “…in 1945, London wanted to put the old world back together again….It thought we could go back to colonial business as usual…” loses my interest immediately. Thus, in 1945, London intended to retain the Indian Raj. Of course, that would contradict those niggling little facts like the future Viceroy of India, Lord Mountbatten, telling French troops bound for Indochina in 1945 that the days of colonialism in Asia were over, and that Britain’s task was to get back to India and see it to independence with the least amount of inter-communal strife possible. (per Henry-Jean Loustau, “Les Deux Bataillons”) But yes, Japan did sound the death knell of European colonialism in Asia, first with its defeat of Russia, and then by pulling the cork on the British, French, and Dutch colonies. Describing China as “colonized”, however, suggests that the poster does not understand the difference between colonialism and neo-colonialism. China never underwent colonialization by any western powers. Also, Macau was a Portuguese entrepot long before the Opium Wars, and remained so until quite recently.

  48. Peter Guilliam said

    >>Peter Guilliam Said:
    >>Doesn’t change my viewpoint on the merits of defeating Japan.

    In response, Rose said:

    >What is your viewpoint on the merits of defeating Japan? Do the >merits outweigh civilian massacre that a lot of westerners seem >to ignore? Do you believe bombing of Tokyo and other major >cities and the use of atomic bombs were really necessary if the >Allied Forces were the “good guys” as you seem to be believing?

    My viewpoint is:

    1. I’m glad the Allies won World War II.

    2. I don’t really care who were the “good guys” and who were the “bad guys”. War is too complex a phenomenon to be reduced to such platitudes. Obviously, “good things” and “bad things” were done on both sides.

    3. I’m glad the US firebombed Tokyo in March 1945, and glad they dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August 1945. It’s my viewpoint that all three events shortened the war and prevented Operation Olympic, which would have lead to a million-plus casualties on both sides.

    4. Under the Japanese occupation of Manchuria, China, and Southeast Asia, between 1941 and 1945 more than 100,000 asians were dying EVERY MONTH in slave labor camps – the romusha. Anything that shortened the war and hastened the Japanese surrender was worth it.

  49. tomojiro said

    “3. I’m glad the US firebombed Tokyo in March 1945, and glad they dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August 1945. It’s my viewpoint that all three events shortened the war and prevented Operation Olympic, which would have lead to a million-plus casualties on both sides. ”

    Very short sighted view. That is what I would call winner’s justice. If that is the only lesson which the allies have got, then there are not that different from the IJA.

    But I believe there are many people who think differntly.

  50. tomojiro said

    “Japan started the war….”

    Agreed.

    “Japan treated American prisoners of war horribly”

    Agreed.

    “that if it had not been for the Japanese invading in the first place, there would have been no problem”

    Agreed.

    “As for using nuclear weapons on Japan, it was the best thing that could have happened to Japan.”

    Sorry, that is the week point in my opinion. I personaly have no grudge about that, but I never heard any convincing argument why A-bomb should be used. I only “understand” why the A-bomb was dropped, because of chain of incidents. The USA was the first who successed to invent the A-bomb, they were at total war with Japan, which the Japanese began, they had to think about the military race which will happen after the war with the USSR.

    I “understand” all that. But, nothing justifies killing innocent civillians, children and women.

    And, hey isn’t that why the A-bomb was never dropped again? Why didn’t the USA used it, when the proportionality was that good at saving human life, during the Vietnam war and save Vietnam from communism?
    Why did president Truman rejected Mac’Arthur’s request to drop the A-bomb against China during the Korean war? It could have saved the Korean peninsula from communism and Kim regime thus saving millions of life from starvation and dictatorship?

    Because, the world recongnized that a warfare which saccrifices millions of civilian life cannnot be justified.And that, I think was a lesson for the humankind.

  51. jion999 said

    I am not sure whether Peter Guilliam and Mac are Europeans or not. But their opinions are typical idea of Westerners. They were good guys and Japanese were bad guys. Massacre of civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is nothing for them. There is a propaganda which says dropping A-bombs saved the expected additional causalities. They believe that propaganda and do not have to have any kind feeling of sin even if killing civilians was irregal.

    That is the reason why Chinese and Korean prefer to use the similar propaganda to criticize Japan. They go after Europeans. They were victims and Japanese were bad guys. The facts that CCP hoped Nationalists and Japan fought each other and many Korean fought on the side of Japan are neglected easily.

    In short, if Japanese try to fight against history distortion of Korea and China, Japanese have to confront whole of victor’s propaganda.

    This is the difficulties of this problem.

  52. tomojiro said

    Jion999

    Forget the conspiracy theory of propaganda. If you continue arguing like that, no wonder that your comment was deleted by Mr.Richardson.

    The problem in your arguments is that you make to much absolute statement without logical reasoning (決め付けすぎです)。

    Arguments are not about winning or losing. It’s not a war.

  53. jion999 said

    Tomojiro

    Of course it is not a war. It is a game.

    I am enjoying.

    I am still waiting for your comment about my opinion No. 29.

    You do not answer at all.

  54. jion999 said

    Tomojiro

    You did not answer the point of the questions at all and made a scolding every time. (笑)
    (説教好きは、人に疎まれますよ。)

  55. Infimum said

    Jion999,

    For your information, Tomojiro is part of this joint statement. The leader of this statement, APEMAN, apears here.

  56. Aceface said

    Time to block this man Big A.

  57. jion999 said

    Aceface

    You did not show your opinion about mine at all, but just try to attack me personally.

    Read the comment No. 37 of blog master again.

    When you disagree, please criticize the ideas and not the person. OK?

  58. jion999 said

    I am not insisting Japan fought for justice.
    I am saying there is no justice or evil in the war. All of countries fight for its national interests.
    But the government tries to make people believe they are fighting for justice.
    This is propaganda. And ignorant people like to believe it.
    We are always right, and they are always wrong.

    WW2 was the first war that victors punished losers on the name of war crimes after the war.
    “War crime” is just an excuse of victors to revenge losers.

    That is the reason why war crimes of victors were never punished.

    When Chinese and Korean shout “War crimes of Japanese”, it means they try to exploit the name of justice to revenge Japanese.

    They never have an idea to punish their own war crimes at all.

  59. jion999 said

    Mac

    “No, it’s not victor’s justice. It’s justice, plain and simple.”

    It must be so plain and simple for people like you.

    Killing of innocent people is illegal. Is there any international low to admit massacre if the enemy attack you first?

    I have talked with American about A-bombs many times.

    9 Americans out of 10 mentioned dropping A-bombs saved the expected additional causalities.

    NHK also reported about such kind situation of history education in US.

    This is the effect of propaganda.

  60. jion999 said

    international low

  61. jion999 said

    It is a mistake. international law

  62. jion999 said

    NHK’s TV program I mentioned on the above about propaganda of history education in US is this.

    ““ヒロシマ”が伝わらない” (The tragedy of “Hiroshima” is not understood)

    http://www.nhk.or.jp/gendai/kiroku2005/0508-1.html

    In US, 57% of Americans answered it was justice to massacre innocent people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    One white female student (very beautiful) of US high school explained the justice of dropping A-bombs like Mac and said in the program as follows;

    “The causalities were only 200,000!”

    NHK reporter showed pictures of causalities in Hiroshima and she was so shocked.

    Such kinds of pictures are never put on the textbook of US.

    http://d.hatena.ne.jp/falcon1125/20050804

  63. jion999 said

    Take easy, Mac.

    You look like a Korean or a Chinese.

    I understand it must be too difficult for you to understand the complicated political and economical situation in those days.
    “Japan invaded first!!!” It must be everything for you.

    BTW, war crimes must be judged fairly like other crimes.

    The war crimes of Japanese were judged after the war and thousands of Japanese were executed.

    How about the crimes of victors?

    War crime is a crime. Massacre is illegal.

    “Japan invaded first.” could not be an excuse not to punish the war crimes of victors.

  64. tomojiro said

    “You look like a Korean or a Chinese.”

    Ampontan,sorry.

    I don’t think such comments should be allowed. That is just racism.

  65. jion999 said

    Tomojiro

    It is not racism.

    Because the comment of Mac on No. 64 is a usual opinion most of Korean insist, I wonder Mac might be a Korean.

    That’s it.

    Why don’t you reply to my opinion about the background and lesson of WW2 on No. 29?

    You just avoid answering at all and try to use blog-master to block me.

    It is not so respected attitude, isn’t it?

  66. jion999 said

    Tomojiro

    I explained the world depression and the following block economy of European countries were the main reason of the WW2.
    I think “Japan invaded first.” could not be the only reason or fault of the war.
    If you believe so, it would be impossible for you to prevent another world war in the future.

    Tomojiro. How about your opinion?

    Do you come back to discussion?
    Or do you just continue to find fault only?

  67. jion999 said

    Mac

    Thank you very much for your very intellectual comment.

    Unfortunately, you did not get a point at all.

    “What I’m absolutely certain of was that the Western colonial nations did not want war and would NEVER have provoked one.”

    US was the biggest oil exporter in those days. The Arabian Gulf had not been developed yet.
    Do you understand what it means US stopped to export crude oil to Japan?

    Now, US is an oil importer.
    I am sure US would invade Middle East if OPEC declares to stop to sell oil to US.
    (In fact, she is invading now.)

    “Your industry was widely dispersed among your populace and so very large areas of your cities were legitimate targets.”

    It is also usual excuse for bombing innocent people.
    Don’t you see?
    Killing innocent people is illegal even in the war. No excuse.
    If such kind of excuse is acceptable, Japanese bombing against Chongqing, capital of China was not crime, either.

    Japanese generals were executed on the charge of the killing innocent people after the war.
    How about the generals of victors?

    It is not the point whether Japanese war crimes would be more brutal than one of US or not.
    If there is a war crime, it must be punished, whether victor or loser.
    If you do not punish the crime of victors, it means judgment of war crimes is just revenge, nothing more.

    “you Japanese should be grateful to whatever god you worship every day that it was the Americans who occupied you.”

    Unfortunately, half of Korea was occupied by USSR and Korea was used as a battlefield of cold war. 3 million of Korean was dead. I believe all of Korean would appreciate the mercy and integrity of US.

    PS
    I met many Koreans on “Enjoy Korea”(Naver), who said they got PhD in US.

  68. jion999 said

    Infimum

    Sorry. I did not recognize your comment of No. 56.
    Thank you very much for your information.

    I wondered about Tomojiro to be so.

    I respect for any opinion and any people.

    But it is deplorable that he rejected discussion and tried to use blog-master to block me when we had a different opinion.

    In short, he exploited “racism” to attack the different opinion.

  69. rose said

    I apologize for commenting ramdomly(I work too many hours plus have family obligation)…and I admit that I could not take the time to read all comments in detail but let me to ask a question to people who believe dropping A-bombs was very good thing done to and for Japan.

    What justifies mass-killing of civilians when fire-bombing military bases could eventually make Japan surrender? Instead of dropping bombs in heavyly populated areas, why didn’t they concentrate on destroying military bases?

    I know some people hate the word “propaganda”, but when a simple question like this one above is not answered in your answers; as to how the use of A-bombs and firebombing of civilian-populated areas helped to make the war end faster, I have to believe it was some form or another of war propaganda to justify this serious war crime.

    And one more question to people who think that Japan deserved it just because she started it.

    This is a what-if question, though I think this illustrates my point pretty well.

    In the Iraq war, the US attacked Iraq in 2003.
    Let’s say, Saddam Hussein had had secret super weapon that no one knew he had or existed. It could literally wipe out the majority of US population in one blast(or whatever) with a touch of a button. He also could disable any electoronic devises using some super technologies that can make all of US Forces’ weapons unusable.

    He decides to use it right after the first attack by the US Forces in order to stop for good the US’s expansionism and outrageous use of its military power for hypocritical reasons(as he thought).
    He use a small version of the weapon and it massacred 10 million US civilians in a matter of hours.
    He justifies the use of his weapon saying that it could save hundreds of millions of people (and then execute US officials as war criminals under “Crime against Peace”).

    If this had actually happened, would you have considered his decision to massacre 10 million civilians justice(when he had alternative choice of just making US Forces’ weapon unusable and go from there)?

    Compare your stance with that of reality. It it any different? Why?
    Isn’t it because your subjectivity is strongly involved? Or maybe you just think that victors of war are above laws, ethics and common sense?

  70. Aceface said

    Mac:
    “If you want sympathy, I suggest you look in the dictionary. It’s found between s*it and syphilis.”
    “I’m an American who is a doctoral candidate in British Empire history. ”
    “you Japanese should be grateful to whatever god you worship every day that it was the Americans who occupied you. ”

    Doctoral candidate in history,eh?

  71. Peter Guilliam said

    jion999 wrote:

    I am not sure whether Peter Guilliam and Mac are Europeans or not. But their opinions are typical idea of Westerners. They were good guys and Japanese were bad guys. Massacre of civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is nothing for them. There is a propaganda which says dropping A-bombs saved the expected additional causalities. They believe that propaganda and do not have to have any kind feeling of sin even if killing civilians was irregal.

    That is the reason why Chinese and Korean prefer to use the similar propaganda to criticize Japan. They go after Europeans. They were victims and Japanese were bad guys. The facts that CCP hoped Nationalists and Japan fought each other and many Korean fought on the side of Japan are neglected easily.

    In short, if Japanese try to fight against history distortion of Korea and China, Japanese have to confront whole of victor’s propaganda.

    This is the difficulties of this problem.

    Woah, hang on there.

    First of all, as I said above, I don’t believe in one-sided war. I think terrible things were done on both sides, often times the atrocities of one side were used to justify ones done by the other. And having said that, it is still my opinion that the firebombing of Tokyo, and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki DID shorten the war and saved millions of lives from a final do-or-die invasion. AND ended the deaths of millions of Asians who were dying in Japan’s slave-labor camps across Asia.

    And having said THAT…it is also my opinion that the Japan of today is the most modern, progressive, human-rights-respecting country in Asia, and one of the best in the world. Unlike the US or Korea, Japan has taken a hard line against North Korean nuclear activities and abuse of human rights, and has a progressive foreign policy that is in stark contrast to the infantile posturings of Roh Moo-Hyun over irrelevant issues such as Dokdo and the name of the Sea of Japan. I also think that Japan as apologized more than once, and more than enough, for what it did in Asia during World War II, and the massive amounts of compensation Japan has paid to its former colonies deserves to be recognized.

  72. jion999 said

    Peter Guilliam

    It is true that the firebombing of Tokyo and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki DID shorten the war.
    But it does not mean that bombing innocent people is lawful.
    Such kind of act is against humanity.

    In short, Japan surrendered because of unlimited massacre and war crimes of US.

    If US bombs all of the big cities of Iraq and supportive Arabic countries, she could finish the war earlier and save millions of lives from the future terrorism.
    But US can not do it in this modern world.
    US could do it in WW2. That’s it.

    If you believe that bombing innocent people is acceptable because it could save millions of lives, do it now.

    The story of “Bombing saved millions of lives.” is just an excuse and propaganda of victors.

  73. jion999 said

    Peter Guilliam

    First of all, the reason which made Germany and Japan negative to accept surrender was because Allied force persisted in unconditional surrender only.

    In the modern history, there were no other cases to force unconditional surrender to the enermies. Being forced unconditional surrender, all of countries must try to fight to death.

    If Allied force had not persisted in unconditional surrender, the war would have finished earlier without massacre of innocent women, children, and old people.

    Forcing unconditional surrender, massacred so many innocent people, and insisting bombing saved millions of lives from a final do-or-die invasion?

    It is a big joke.

  74. jion999 said

    Anyway, there is an interesting episode regarding the final do-or-die invasion.

    “Nearly 500,000 Purple Heart medals were manufactured in anticipation of the casualties resulting from the invasion of Japan. As of 2005, all the American military casualties of the following sixty years — including the Korean and Vietnam Wars — have not exceeded that number.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall

    http://hnn.us/articles/1801.html

    It is the evidence that WW2 made all of people crazy.

    Victors and followers like Koreans are trying to criticize the craziness of losers only.

  75. Aceface said

    Jion666:
    Maybe you can ask marmot how to spot a Kyopo,for he does seem to know hot spot a Jap.

  76. jion999 said

    Aceface

    Again?
    I like to expect you more intelligent comment.

  77. Peter Guilliam said

    jion999 Said:

    Peter Guilliam,

    It is true that the firebombing of Tokyo and the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki DID shorten the war.

    Then we are in agreement. I was simply responding to Rose’s earlier question as to what was my opinon regarding the end of the war.

    And since, in the 1940s, Japan was enslaving millions of Asians and forcing them to work to death – illegally, I might add – I have little sympathy with arguments that the bombings of Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were “war crimes”. If anything, Japan in the 1940s only got a small dose of what it dished out to its neighbors.

    The Allies decided that unconditional surrender would be the only acceptable end to the war, because they were convinced from the experience of World War I that anything less than unconditional surrender would sow the seeds of future wars. And history shows us they were right. Both Germany and Japan surrendered unconditionally, and both states were reordered and became peaceful, nonaggressive, democratic societies. If Japan was only willing to accept unconditional surrender at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives of its citizens…well that was Japan’s decision, not anybody else’s.

  78. jion999 said

    Peter Guilliam

    “Japan was enslaving millions of Asians and forcing them to work to death – illegally”

    Some were true. But some were propaganda of victors. And such kind of propaganda was used as an excuse to massacre innocent Japanese women, children, and old men.

    “enslaving millions of Asians “?

    Who started imperialism in Asia?

    “they were convinced from the experience of World War I that anything less than unconditional surrender would sow the seeds of future wars.”

    You are wrong. After WW1, Germen challenged Allied force again because Allied force asked so much reparation after the war to Germany. That was a reason why Nazi got power.

    Allied countries learned the lesson from WW1 and did not ask reparation to Germany and Japan after WW2. That was the reason why we did not have another war.

    Another lesson of WW2 is the importance to establish free trade system. The Block economy of western countries which owned so much territory, market, and natural resources was the main reason of WW2. That is the reason why US tried to establish UN and GATT (General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade; now, called WTO).

    Peter Guilliam

    Do you really believe you can get peace if you massacre innocent people and force unconditional surrender everywhere in the world?

  79. jion999 said

    Peter Guilliam

    Even if you kill bad guy, murder is murder. You must be punished as a murderer more or less.

    It is a modern law.

    If you believe killing of justice must be acceptable, do it.

    You must know what will happen to you.

  80. Dan said

    “The Japanese started out with the intention of ending the European colonization of Asia.”

    An odious half truth. The Japanese set out with he intention of colonising Asia themselves and any attempt to portray the Imperial Japanese as libertors is not only risible but offensive to millions of Asians. If you don’t believe this I suggest you go to China or Korea and ask for the opinions of locals on their noble Japanese liberators.

    I have absolutely no doubt that Japanese prisoners were mistreated by the Western allies after the Japanese surrender nor do I have any issue in recognising the crimes of colonial powers in Asia and the rest of the world but by selectively highlighting one facet of this book you reveal yourself as an exponent of craven moral equivalence.

    Face it, the Imperial Japanese were a bestial bunch and the reaction of the Japanese state and, seemingly, the majority of the public to the conduct of their nation in the war is pathetic and shaming when compared to the very real remorse expressed over a period of decades by Germany.

  81. Aceface said

    “If you don’t believe this I suggest you go to China or Korea and ask for the opinions of locals on their noble Japanese liberators.”

    Well,perhaps it is better to go to some other place in Asia since those two were not exactly colonized by the westerns like Burma or Indonesia.Although I do not support any liberator role there either.

    “I have absolutely no doubt that Japanese prisoners were mistreated by the Western allies after the Japanese surrender nor do I have any issue in recognising the crimes of colonial powers in Asia and the rest of the world ”

    So far there are no compensations to the Japanese prisoners being mistreated by the allies including those who were kept in USSR and Mongolia AFTER 1945.(Although we ain’t asking for it anyway)
    There are no compensation to the colonized asian nation(or anywhere) by the western state either,let alone any word of apology that I know.(The Netherland demanded compensation from the Indonesians when Indonesia got independent.They got some from the Japanese too,of which is legitimate)Marked difference with our countless apology to the Koreans.
    Something you may want to put it to your mind,before you want to give some old testament-like rage to the Japanese from moral high ground,Dan.

    “seemingly, the majority of the public to the conduct of their nation in the war is pathetic and shaming when compared to the very real remorse expressed over a period of decades by Germany.”

    This is pretty offensive term for us,the majority of Japanese society,for we did pay compenstation to the SE nations which got newly independent after the war in the 50’s and has been constantly apologizing,including the recent Koizumi aology in Bandung in 2006.
    I also suggest you to come to Japan and ask for the opinions of locals on the role of “noble Japanese liberators”in Western colonized Asia.
    I’m sure many are pretty skeptic about that too.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

 
%d bloggers like this: