Mac’s question about Japan and Tibet
Posted by ampontan on Wednesday, April 9, 2008
FREQUENT POSTER MAC asked an off-topic question while replying to another thread. The question is so good, however, it deserves to be asked where everyone can see and hear it:
What face are the Japanese people going to show amidst all this Olympic Torch/Tibet/Human Rights kerfuffle? It’s a high stakes card to play, but I would say with China’s credibility on the way down, Japan have an opportunity to raise theirs. Whose example are they going to follow on this one?
Whose example indeed?
ジェイソン (Jason) said
I’m looking forward to seeing the reaction as the torch makes its way to Japan. Personally, I’d like to see Japan take the high road. Far too often the leaders of this country have made a fool of themselves one way or another, seemingly drawing attention away from the real problems of the day.
Hopefully Fukuda and Ozawa play the smart card, and hopefully the protesters that are likely to congregate will be better behaved than those witnessed in Europe
Aceface said
My prediction.
The torch will go as smooth as it can be.
James A said
I’ve met quite a few Japanese who are pro-Tibet. The government on the other hand would probably prefer not to say anything too outspoken about the matter.
One excellent editorial I read mentioned that everyone is worried about the fate of the Tibetans under Chinese rule, but how come nobody is getting mad about the Chinese supply of finances and arms to Al-Bashir’s government in Sudan? Not to belittle the difficulties faced by the Tibetans, but we’ve got a freakin’ genocide going on here in Sudan.
Bender said
It seems that the Chinese & ethnic Chinese living in the West are trying to make Tibet a East/West confrontation issue. Forgetful they are that they were bashing Japan ferociously when it tried to join the UN security council…and they even argue the PRC “modernized” Tibet! Now, how come they were storming the Japanese embassy and demanding apology a few years ago?
BTW, I agree with Aceface and James…the Japanese gov’t won’t do anything, as usual. Human rights issues abroad are in the bottom of their list. Which is a reflection of the general Japanese psyche, I think.
Aceface said
James A.Read this.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/21/opinion/edcunningham.php
and this
http://icga.blogspot.com/2007/12/inside-chinese-state-tv.html
and if you are interested try this from the same author.http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%82%A4%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B5%E3%83%BC%E3%83%88%E3%83%BB%E3%83%97%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BA%E2%80%95%E7%95%B0%E5%9B%BD%E3%81%AE%E8%82%8C%E3%81%AB%E7%BE%A4%E3%81%8C%E3%81%A3%E3%81%9FTOKYO%E5%A5%B3%E4%BA%8B%E6%83%85-%E3%83%95%E3%82%A3%E3%83%AA%E3%83%83%E3%83%97%E3%83%BBJ-%E3%82%AB%E3%83%8B%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B0%E3%83%8F%E3%83%A0/dp/4584181837
mac said
I have no idea what “smooth as it can be” means … I would like to step back and look at this from the bigger picture. The torch relay comes to Nagano on April 26. London and Paris were hysterical as is the real time commentary on 2ch.
The British police looked as if they were competing for a gold medal in American Football, fending off protestors as if they were attacking linemen. The Parisian Flics acted like a phalanx of pretorian guards … what are figures? 65 motorcycle police, 100 firemen, another 100 police on roller blades, nearly 50 armored vehicles with more than 200 riot police, boats and helicopters …. and the Kung Fu Blue “Flame Attendants” surrounding the actual barbecue lighter. The State’s idea of a “people’s festival” for sure … and they still could not get it through.
Its amusing to see how forces both have learnt and adopted from their experience with both the Critical Mass and Road Protest movement and the anti-G8 / WTO movements. Cops on bikes and rollerblades, body armor AND packing. Note the use of “sporty” cycle helmets rather than the usual Nazi-style black ATF helmets (http://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/04/06/Olympic-protest-460×276.jpg). That was a good PR spin. So much for a celebration of human spirit and their mantra “sport not about politics” … the IOC is starting to look more like front for the New World Order. Come back Lene Riefenstahl, all is forgiven.
Now … Japan … Neither is Nagano the most politicised city in Japan, nor is 8.30 am the best time to organize a rabble to fight a running street battle against riots cops and Chinese secret police … but my question is really about the position of the Japanese left in an avowedly Buddhist society? How does the TIbet issue split them … why do Japanese people not care about the Tibet buddhists (of which at least Shingon Budhism is a very, very close relative),
In the West, you can pretty well guarantee that the Free Tibet movement consists mainly of the same Anarcho-Lefties that turn up for every other anti-establishment protest (bolstered by Amnesty International, few genuinely tortured and horrendously refugees, some boho buddhists and New Agers).
But in Japan, they seem to have a problem. The Asahi-reading Lefties here appear to be more keen to roll over like doggies for the Mainland Communist Party and feel shame for their grandfather sins instead. They seem to love China and are silenced over this one. The only pro-Tibet noise I am hearing is from people I usually find irritatingly Niphon-nationalist and Right Wing!!! My feeling is they are more anti-China rather than pro-Dalai Lama and are just enjoying seeing China lose face massively. And China is.
Now, I am under few illusions either way. I am not a Dalai Lama devotee. I am perfectly aware that the Yellow Hats were just as corrupt a bunch as the Medieval Vatican was and I reckon that had the Chinese not know that his brother and other high official were taking millions of Dollars from America’s CIA, then perhaps the people of TIbet would have gotten an easier ride of things and been treated less like a security threat.
At the same time, for hundreds of year, as the Lamas accrued power and wealth, and threw curse at Dzogchen practitioners, Lhasa et al where unsanitary s*holes for the actual Tibetan people and so I can see where the youthful revolutionary party were coming from “liberating them” from their holy slavery. A lot of Tibet Buddhism is just social control by a different elite and superstition. I had a friend who actually studied in Lhasa for years and taught Tibetan studies for the Communist Party in Beijing. I can see where they were coming from and they were supported from within by other Tibetans. But, all the same, Chinese went too far with their raping and killing, so “Hans off Tibet”!
To say the Olympics is not about politics is laughable … it is a showcase for the New World Order. So where is Japan’s voice? Is it more in Japan’s interest to appease their large neighbor at any cost to morality? Or is the thought of being seen to be so impolite and unreasonable and discuss such unsavory events so close to their own nation’s past just too traumatic for it?
Personally speaking, I predict a Gold Medal for San Francisco, Silver for Paris with the Canberra putting on a brave challenge against London’s bronze with activists seek to outdo each other in an effort to steal the limelight.. This has been the best Olympics since Jessie Owens and where is Japan? … watching the figure skating probably.
(As usual, I find collective terms such as “China” and “Japan” deeply unsatisfactory and think that we should be more specific in our analysis and allegations).
mac said
Folks … the latest news commentary is … can the Yanks allow themselves to outdone by the Frenchies on this one!!! Why even if we don’t agree with Richard Gere… that would just be unpatriotic, would not it. Where is tulku Steven Seagal when we need him? He ought be heading up the American Unolympic Team swatting Swat officers off to extinguishing the flame with his Ki.
Aceface said
There is pretty interesting discussion going on by a Chinese blogger here.
http://sun-bin.blogspot.com/
Bender said
Aceface:
Interesting? It’s rather boring. It’s a typical unapologetic comment by a Han Chinese. If a Japanese person makes similar comments about Manchukuo and Hakko-Ichiu or Gozoku-Kyowa or whatever, I’m pretty sure they get all hyped up and angry. They still think they’re victims of “western” aggression and prejudice, but they’re not.
Aceface said
This dude speaks perfect English.Has blog.And seems well educated.Yet he thinks Tibetans should know it’s place and accusing westerns for supporting human right and completely buys Beijing’s propaganda about “Dalai Clique”.
It is interesting.Because it confirms my guess that economic development and internet and olympic don’t change China as much as it’s supposed to be.
Bender said
Of course not. Look at S Korea. Democracy and economic development there is leading to a ever stronger sense of nationalism and even ethnocentrism. Probably getting unstoppable. Tolerance and respect of minority rights don’t come automatically with democracy and/or economic prosperity. Maybe these invite arrogance and a sense of invincibility, rather.
Aceface said
South Korea is waaay better than this.Heck,Roh had hundreds of flaws,but he was on the side of underdogs afterall.
Lots of nationalism you see on media are pretty much a gesture of taking advantage of paternalism of the U.S and Japan.Media is ethnocentric,no question about it.But they are starting to cover misery of the marginals like Vietnamese wives in the rural area and refugees from the North.Compare to that cruelity of Chinese to uthe nderdogs scares me.
I do get pretty pissed off when I confront jingoism in Korea,but I do have confidence in the Korean civic society.Lots of Japanese think that way,if they actually get to know a Korean in person.
tomojiro said
“Lots of Japanese think that way,if they actually get to know a Korean in person.”
Exactly! SK on the internet or in the media is not what it is in reality.
The South Koreans (especially the younger generations) are also (if somewhat in a slowly way) finding out that Japan in their internet and in their media is also not Japan or Japanese in realty.
Although from my personal experience I have a sense that the older generations of South Koreans were much more “Pro-Japanese” than the contemporary generation in a very twisted way.
tornados28 said
China has clearly intended this torch relay to be used for their political goals from the beginning. Now that the torch relay is being used against them, they are crying like babies.
We all should have known this coming 8 years ago when China was awarded the Olympics. We should have all known that China has not changed. They are the same China from Tiananmen Square. People were just distracted by China’s growing economy.
China deserves to be humiliated. They brought it on themself by their cultural genocide in Tibet.
ampontan said
Here’s what I think: The torch will probably go smoothly, as Aceface suggests. But James A has a point. There’s really not a whole lot of positive things to say about the Chinese politically. People could find something in their behavior to protest any time of the day or night. And yes, Free Tibet, I think so too, but there’s something too “flavor of the month” about these Olympic Torch demonstrations that turns me off.
Perhaps it’s because I have no interest in the Olympics…
Another problem is that this sort of protest might tend to make the average Chinese feel like the West is picking on them during their moment in the sun, and cause further problems down the road.
Maybe it’s good that the Olympics are mobilizing world opinion, but maybe it’s not so good that they couldn’t have found something more political and less injurious than national pride to hang it on.
Ken said
Nagano where Torch relay is perfomed in Japan is minor city unlike London, Paris and San Fransisco.
The nature of the locality is conservative and not so politically active.
Nagano of Zenkou-ji is the one of sacred places for Japanese Bhuddists as well.
Originally, Bhuddists are temperate and the representative of Tibet in Japan declared they would demonstrate but follow Japanese rule.
Japanese people also do not like conflict so that Japan cannot get any medal in radicalism competition.
If Tibetans really want to become independent, they would ally with East-turkestan activists.
http://www.geocities.jp/saveeastturk/eng.html
hoju_saram said
Aceface,
In light of you recently calling our PM, “Chairman Rudd of People’s Republic of Australia”, I thought you might find this article interesting:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/rudd-to-china-fix-tibet/2008/04/09/1207420485559.html
When can I expect something similar of the Japanese PM?
Bender said
I do get pretty pissed off when I confront jingoism in Korea,but I do have confidence in the Korean civic society.Lots of Japanese think that way,if they actually get to know a Korean in person.
Well, the same thing can be said about getting to know the Chinese personally. In fact, you’ll see myriads of personal good relationship between Americans and Japanese before WWII. But that didn’t help much. I think the collective mass-psyche works quite differently. Surely, the S Korean media reflect what the people want to hear. They’re for-profit businesses, right?
As much as I’m not fond of authoritarian states, I ‘m not fond of failing democracies. Democracies can fail when nationalism or ethno-hate gets out of hand. Good example: Nazi Germany. “Civic societies” don’t automatically spring with democracy or prosperity. It’s human rights (especially minority rights) and sense of tolerance/compassion towards those different from you that’s also important. I see this fundamentally lacking in countries surrounding Japan.
Aceface said
Hoju saram:
In case you don’t know about history,we’ve killed quite a lot of Chinese in Nanjing not so long ago.And that was indeed a “massacre”.I don’t surprise Japanese PM is reluctant about preaching human rights to the Chinese.The Chinese youth run amok for seeing their premier acting friendly to Japanese,what would happen if they see J-PM criticizing their PM? And the world actually clap their hands and openly supports Beijing using history as leverage against Japan.Wouldn’t it be a bit of hypocrisy for you to condemn Japanese timidity on Chinese human rights?
Many in Tokyo thinks Chairman Rudd is skipping Japan and spends four days in China,because:
a)He wanted make the difference from Howard by shifting priority from Tokyo to Beijing.b)He wanted please China by skipping Japan just like Bill Clinton did in ‘98.
c)He wantd kill security-quartet of U.S,Japan,India and Australia.
d)He thinks whales are smart but Tibetans aren’t.That’s why whaling is a massacre and killing of Tibetans are marely “significant” human right problem,but not much of a massacre.
I think Japanese are entitled for angry about Rudd’s betrayal.
a)You see,Tokyo has been fighting singlehandedly to have Australia(along with NZ and India)to be included in ASEAN plus 3 caucaus inspite of opposition of China,Malaysia and Indonesia.
b)We’ve just signed landmarking defense pact with Canberra last year to deter China.I was very critical of that because something like this would happen and it would be a loss for Japan and gain for new sinophile Australian government.But it become in reality.
c)Rudd have already met Hu Jintao in Australia last year,but haven’t even phoned Fukuda once since he is in office.I see no evidence of him doing something for damage control to save our relation during whaling extravaganza.I presume it is the rise of Anti-Japanese was a good thing for Rudd to appeal Australian going green(eventhough had signed Kyoto protocol only yesterday)and can shift his more china centered policy without minding opposition from both domestic and Tokyo.
I used to be whaling skeptics before,but now I’m not.
If Japan can be mocked in such a minor and fringe issue(and pretty well conditioned,both legally and environmentally),who knows what would happen in more critical interest of ours.I just thought we are in desperate need of pushing back this trend,which was really a gift in disguise and that we have to thank the Australian and may have to learn from the Chinese more.
Aceface said
This just in.
Shinzo and Akie Abe met with Dalai Lama in Narita.
Dalai Lama is on his way to the U.S from India and stopping over for the transit.
Aceface said
OMG.
Minus Shinzo Abe,It’s just Akie.
hoju_saram said
Aceface,
A)Rudd has been quite critical of China, both during his visit there and in a previous speech to the Brookings Institue, which the Chinese leadership expressed their displeasure about. Compared to every other western country save perhpas France, he’s been a vocal critic of many aspects of the CCP.
B)He’s hardly snubbed Japan. In fact, he is visiting Japan on July 7.
C)I know you couldn’t give a shit about whales, but most Australian people do. 95% of the population live within half an hour of the coast. The ocean is a massive part of life in Australia, and whales and whale watching is a part of that. But it’s not just that Japan is insisting on hunting whales, they’re doing in what Australia considers its territorial waters. That’s the key. You can sign al the deals you want, and make pacts and help us get into ASEAN, but then you turn around and infringe on what we consider our sovereign territory for some seafood, you send a prety negative message. A lot of people find that insulting.
Aceface said
Chairman Rudd:
Kevin Rudd and Australia has every right of being friend with Beijing and decide their own foreign policy.What we are pissing is it was done at our expense.
France is critical on China?
I don’t think so.It does have it’s policy on human rights but it was Jacques Chiraq(who is a lifelong Japanophile)who decided to lift the EU embargo on arms to China against Tokyo’s objection.The embargo is continuing only because Washington weighs in.Sarkozy had once said he doesn’t like Japan compared to China and as his words,he haven’t been here yet,though been to Beijing as soon as he took office last year.
Anyway we have no pact with Paris and they are not our ally.So what the French do is their business,not ours.however Australia is not.
Like I said,the point is not the way Rudd deal with China,but Japan.
Coming here on July 7?
Because Brendan Nelson told him so?Well,it’s a bit late and the damage is already done.That’s just adding more insults as if it’s not enough already,Mate.
Had the dear chairman not ask Fukuda in advance whether or not that was the right time for his face saving trip?
Because Fukuda is going to be very busy by that time since we will probably have general election and what ever the consequence will be Fukuda would probably not the prime minister by that time.
So far the most likely successor will be this dude.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20060517rl.html
And he ain’t a sinophile like Fukuda.
With him in the office,we sure gonna have a rough relation with Canberra.
Whales:
I do consider some whales need to be protected.Like Blue whales and I don’t think hunting humpback is a good idea,even though their number is recovering.Humpback watching is a important resource for whale watching industry in Ogasawara and Amami.
So not that I dont’ give a s**t about whaling,of which I do.But we also have to consider the livelihood of whalers and certain port town that consider whaling is part of their historical identity.
Whaling debate has been the biggest stone of trembling for Japan’s environmentalists because general public consider it’s more of an emotional animal rights movement.On the contrary,nobody is against Kyoto protocpl.Symbolizing this is one of the harshest critic of the government in this issue is Tokyo Governor Ishihara Shintaro.He is very pro-Kyoto.Ofcourse the fact he was the director of environment agency back in ‘76 under Fukuda(PM’s dad)admin has something to do with this.
So above those reasons it is very difficult even for environmentalist to give in on whaling in Japan,just because the fact that the Australians are all beachcombers doesn’t change the situation.I hope you will understand.
And we(or should I say the world except Britain,France,New Zealand and Norway)do not recognize Australian territorial waters being extended to Antarctic Ocean.And it seems to be Chairman Rudd is thinking about bring that to International Court as if the provocation isn’t enough.
So will see you in court.
Ken said
CCCT broadcasted Rudd had expressed opposition to boycott of Olympic influenced by Tibetan activists, etc.
I wonder whether he could not imagine his visit is taken advantage of by China if he visits at this timing.
No, it would be impossible because he has strange preference like eating earwax as follows.
http://www.afpbb.com/article/politics/2302761/2280814
Aceface said
1)
The point is not whether you are critical about China,but how that effects Japan’s interest.
Rudd and Australia can seek whatever they think is good for their country,it just his policy of anti-whaling was done in the manner that harm our relation and his China policy conducted at our expense.
Coming to Tokyo on July 7th? That’s because Brendon Nelson told Rudd to do so.Not because he thought it is necessary.And isn’t it a little bit bad time for Fukuda to have company coming here only for damage control? There will probably a general election around that time,if the current political climate continues(and it is highly likely)and whatever the consequence it would be,Fukuda will resign.
The most likely successor is Aso Taro.Somehow I can’t link the article on Japan Times.But there is a piece by Australian scholar Robyn Lim claiming Aso has historical problem with Australia.
So,Rudd,whatever his intention over Japan he has,already lost the opportunity of making relation for good.
And about Frnace being anti-Chinese.
France is a supporter of lifting of EU arms embargo on China,which is crucial on maintaining peace in Taiwan Straits.(and Sarkozy had also mentioned once that he preffered China over Japan.,although this was during rivaly with his former boss Jacques Chiraq,a life long Japanophile)And here I’m arguing their implication of their policy to our natioal interest,not the legitimacy of it.
Anyway France is not Japan’s ally,But Australia is.(Or more precisely the partner of entente,thus being regarded higher status)
2)
The claim of Australian territorial waters extended to Antarctic is only recognized by four countries in the world(UK,NZ,Frnace and Norway).Japan,like the rest of the world,is not.
As I ‘ve mentioned few in Japan including environmentalist doubt the legitimacy of scientific whaling.Those who oppose are purely doing for emotional reasons or simply as a habit.But in case of Rudd administration,he is using for populist cause.Anti-whaling makes Australians going more green then they really are even though Canberra signed Kyoto Protocol only yesterday.
(While here in Japan,Kyoto protocol is supported by even the right winger like Tokyo governor Ishihara Shintaro.)
Japan enjoys whale watching in more than half dozen area too,but we also have whalers and port towns who has been practicing whaling for centuries.If their target species are not endangered such as Minke,and not endangered blie whales,why should we stop that?
Because Australian’s are all beachcombers?
Because they claim the ocean is theirs without broad international recognitions?
Or Because Kevin Rudd cry foul over IWC recognized,environmentally sustainable scientific whaling,”a massacre”?
One more thing Chaiman Rudd should add to his grand tour in middle kongdom,if he so wishes to save cataceans of the world,he should also caution the Chinese about protection of Baiji,the Yangtze River Dolphine.Last year,the international researchers made announcement that the species is extinct,or if survives in numbers less than ten,due to the pollution of Yangtze river and the construction of Three gorges Dam.
Baiji would gain dishonorable record as the first extinct catacean speicies by human actions.
But then again,Rudd is busy praising Chinese development instead.
GI Korea said
Rudd has been getting way to much credit in the Australian press about his comments concerning Tibet. The censored Chinese media only showed Rudd’s comments supporting China’s claim on Tibet and his support for no Olympic boycott and nothing about his comments critical of Chinese Tibet policy:
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/so_they_are_coming_after_all/
Basically Rudd pulled off a very clever political move (which Rudd is very skilled at) where the Chinese where able to hear what they wanted to hear from him and the Australian public got to hear what they wanted to hear.
As far as whaling if the Antarctic is Australian territory then the Australian government should arrest the whalers. If they were whaling off the coast of Perth the Aussie government would arrest them, then why not the Antarctic? It is because the Australian claim on the Antarctic is dubious and would not hold up in an international court.
Plus the minke whale is not even endangered and the 2007 Australian of the Year Tim Flannery supported the Japanese whaling program because it was a sustainable program. With the amount of native Australian species that are actually threatened by extinction you would think the Aussie government would put more focus on advocating to protect them instead of this bogus whaling argument.
Bender said
Here’s a good post:
http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=89773
Ken said
A man who protected handicapped woman of Torch carrier from disturbance became a hero in China.
The ruffian was reported as Tibetan but here is put up a doubt of self-make & paly as follows.
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=tT4vNV4heqs
http://jp.epochtimes.com/jp/2008/04/html/d32396.html
Does anyone know whether this is true or not?
Aceface said
Things are getting even more bizarre.
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20080415-00000059-scn-cn
Bender said
Apart from Chinese non-immigrants (students, etc.), I don’t see how it is “patriotic” to advocate the legitimacy of a policy of the regime that they left for good. And even for non-immigrants, maybe they should reflect on the fact that Australia/Canada/US etc. tolerate them to publicly demonstrate dissent while their regime back home does not.
Ken said
Japanese police did not admit Chinese dispatching secret police accompanied Torch runner in London, Paris and San Fransisco.
Zenkou-ji, one of sacred point for Japanese Buddhists, resigned the start point of Torch relay.
I am looking forward to the direct body attack by Australians like Sea Shephard during Torch relay in Sidney.
Aceface said
Japan is the only nation in Asia that objects China,says Chinese foreign minister in Tokyo.
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20080419-00000004-yom-pol
mac said
Cool … Japan easily outslips the Californians in the Anti-Olympics with a skillful attempt at gold with some fancy footwork by pulling an Aikido throw as the young monks at the Zenkoji temple finally ‘get political’ on Chinese ass.
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jCN6CLqVC5FQuP9joKeXo_HITGcQ
I feel this is quite remarkable from a cultural and diplomatic point of view. So … yes … will the Aussies take a break from culling kangaroos and try ramming the security cavalcade or slipping up Beijing’s Secret Police with a rancid butter attack to claim their place on the podium? The Chinese Embassy is responding by laying on buses from other cities for Chinese students to attended the run. Presumably those Chinese government student grants come with “Thou shalt attended political rallies in the name of the Motherland” written into the terms and conditions.
One interesting aside, despite years of opposition to the idea due to cost and security issues, the IOC executive board only eventually gave in to pressure from Beijing Games organisers and torch relay sponsors including the likes of Coca-Cola.
I’d like to say, Aceface, I am sure that you personally did not kill a load of Chinese in Nanjing and neither did 99.999% of your countryfolk. Indeed, I am sure that you would be hard pressed to find just a handful that did so, as that political entity that engaged in such war no longer exists, you are officially free of any conscience about the matter whatsoever. No need for any re-education around here.
What I do not understand is why the Modern China is not eternally grateful towards Old Japan because if the latter had not sufficiently worn out Chiang Kai-shek and the KMT during WWII, there is doubt whether the Communist Party would have even manage to take power at all (to carry out its own ambitious and multitudinous homemade genocides afterwards). So, really, China is obviously deeply indebted to Japan and ought be outwarding practising its gratitude.
If only life was so simple …
Aceface said
Mac:
This just in.
A Japanese family(Parents and a boy) with Tibetan flag was attacked by dozens of pro-Chinese crowd in Kuala Lumpur,Malaysia.NHK says the father was wrapped up in big Chinese flag and beaten by the crowd repeatedly.There are no serious injury,J embassy says.
Bender said
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/18/AR2008041802715.html
Opinion from a Chinese Yale Law School student. I wonder if Tibetan students ever have a chance to go to Yale/Harvard?
BTW, I see no good in “nationalism”. I might be some member of a nation-state, but I’m just me. So is anyone else.
mac said
Having just recently witnessed one Chinese Embassy sponsored “Pro-China/Olympics 2008 rally” in a foreign capital, only indirectly related to any torch relay because the relay was not going through that capital, I have to say that I concur that Olympics are being used to vent nationalistic pride (and hence being politicised by the very same people marching with “Sport not politics” banners).
Similar to Bender, I was left asking myself what sort of families within China are allowed to send their kids to overseas universities in the first place and I certainly witnessed quite a shocking aggressivity within the crowd. Lots of “Tibet is/was/will always be China” banners and chants along the lines of, literally, “Death to all traitors”. The few single Pro-Tibet demonstrators, most actual Tibetans and women themselves, were out numbered on a ratio of about 4 or 5 to 1 by armed AND plain clothes police.
This did not stop the Chinese crowding round them with large red flags lying, attempting to pull the Tibetan flags down and angry confrontation by mobsters. Only the intervention of security staff from the Chinese Embassy to cool them down and separate the crowd stopped it spilling over into the type of violence listed above, as this was meant to be for good PR.
I agree entirely with how uncomfortable this kind of nationalism makes me feel. I have to say it was very ugly. And what is a “nation”. We may say “Chinese” but this lot were almost entire Han and of specific classes. One problem I can see with “China” is that single classes, e.g. Nationalists, preferentially treated elite party members etc are so huge that they comprise of the size of an entire nation. I hope that the informed, liberal or even charitable voice with China is also as large but it is not a great hope. It was a very fanatical crowd.
Next time I am going back with a banner in Cantonese that reads, “You are only here because you are afraid they will send your parents back to the state owned labor camps”. Of what I picked up, and these are overseas Chinese, they really did not have a clue about what was going on and were afraid to think outside of the State controlled thought bubble, e.g. all protest was arranged by the Dalai Lama “clique”, all troubles were cause by a “handful of Tibetan Separatists” etc.
mac said
Nagano is apparently deploying 3,000 officers to police the Torch Rally in Japan and are perhaps going to be the first city to refuse the “Boys in Blue”. (Incidentally London estimated costs of policing the rally at over £700,000!)
Just out of interest, as many of the Chinese counter-protestors are being organised by local Chinese Chambers of Commerce and other “Chinese media organizations”, how many of them are actually Chinese and not earlier immigrants from Hong Kong?
Commentators on Japanese TV are raising note of the fragile state of internal politics within China and how they are of much greater concern than overseas issues. In particular, the need for the State party to respond to their people’s “democratic” desire for them to take a much tougher line on Tibetan unrest. Surely this is where democracy starts to fail, where the whipped up proletariat starts to bay for blood even in the leadership has no stomach for it.
Aceface said
” Surely this is where democracy starts to fail, where the whipped up proletariat starts to bay for blood even in the leadership has no stomach for it.”
That happens here in the land of rising sun too,Mac.Way back in 1931.
Ken said
The association of Chinese students in Japan seems mobilizing counter-protestors from all over Japan.
Manual against protests is prepared and fee for travel is under the cost so that somebody is pulling wires.
This collection of travelers is illegal as far as the collector does not have travel agency license of Japan.
Anyway, I wonder what China is performing Torch relay for though I see neither Olympic flag to show respect toward the spirit nor each country’s flag to show appreciation toward each country among the Chinese.
mac said
I’d be interested to see the “manual of protest”. Has anyone posted one online yet?
What I can confirm, from my own experience, is that the Chinese response is internationally co-ordinated and identical, e.g. big red sponsored flags, little flags on faces, the involvement of embassy figures acting as security to keep the crowds in order … interestingly … regardless of which country, the banners are all in English and so the target appears to be the opinion forming Western media. I find nationalism of this sort chilling regardless of who is practicing it.
The news is saying they shipped in 2,000 students.
mac said
From http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-4-25/69719.html (possibly Falun Gong related)
JAPAN—Chinese Student and Scholar Associations (CSSA) in Japanese universities have received notice from the Chinese Embassy, asking them to mobilize all possible manpower to Nagano on April 26 to support the Beijing Olympic Torch Relay. Sources disclosed that yellow T-shirts will be distributed to them by the Embassy and that the Embassy will also give every one a bottle of mineral water and a pen. All expenses incurred will be paid by the Embassy.
In addition, participants were told by the embassy to claim that the activity is spontaneously organized by unofficial organizations, which have nothing to do with the embassy. Sources also revealed that the Chinese Embassy in Japan has received orders to prevent human rights protests similar to those that happened in the UK and France from recurring in Japan at all costs. It has been repeatedly exposed by media that the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) manipulates overseas Chinese students to work for them. It incites students and secretly develops spies to infiltrate students.
Wei Jingsheng, a well-known Chinese democracy activist pointed out that the CCP on one hand deceives and makes the public fanatical with its control of media, especially Chinese media. On the other hand it threatens and lures students with gains through the operation of its embassies and consulates, overseas education bureaus, and student associations.
Wei said that Chinese embassies tightly control overseas students. Student associations in all places are de facto intelligence agents of the CCP. The CCP monitor students through student party members and government funded students. Some students have family in China. They are not sure whether they can stay in the foreign countries in future. So they are afraid that they will be in trouble once they return to China if they offend the CCP. “The so-called patriotism is instigated by the CCP on purpose,” said Wei,
Dr. Liu Wei was chairman of the Student Federation in Manchester City, United Kingdom in 1998-9 and the executive committee of all student associations in the UK. He said, “The skeleton members of the student associations are appointed by the Education Department of the Chinese Embassy or the Education Unit of the Chinese Consulates. The Education Department regularly calls meetings with the skeleton members. The officials of the Department will assign the political work that the CCP asks the overseas students to do in order to extend its domestic policies overseas.”
Zhang Yang is former director of the international department of the CSSA in Tohoku University, Japan in 1996. He disclosed that inside the Chinese Staff Association, there is an underground party branch that is under the direct control of the Chinese Embassy in Tokyo. Sources disclosed that the president of the association can often read confidential documents at the ministerial level.
mac said
It may be all over bar the weather on Everest but here is some interesting video footage of the Japanese leg that did not make it onto mainstream TV;
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm3150865
(Requires free registration).