AMPONTAN

Japan from the inside out

Men, women, Japan, and the West

Posted by ampontan on Friday, November 16, 2007

MOST WESTERN MEN MARRIED TO JAPANESE WOMEN have at some point been subjected to the petulant accusation by a Western woman that they chose their wives because “Japanese women will do anything you say”.

Philosophy can provide a comforting perspective for the man trapped in such a situation and who chooses to remain civil. For example, it is reassuring to recall the words of British essayist William Hazlitt in On Common-Place Critics:

A common-place critic has something to say upon every occasion, and he always tells you either what is not true, or what you knew before, or what is not worth knowing. He is a person who thinks by proxy, and talks by rote.

Those of a funkier turn of mind, however, might reflect on the observations of The Rolling Stones in the song, Stupid Girl:

Like a lady in waiting to a virgin queen
Look at that stupid girl!
She bitches ‘bout things that’s she’s never seen
Look at that stupid girl!

Whatever option he chooses, modern man must show more forbearance than his ancestors, who would have either laughed in the woman’s face or punched her in it.

Speaking for myself, “thinking by proxy and talking by rote” about covers it. Adult Japanese women don’t take marching orders from anybody, much less their husbands, as any one of us married to them will attest. The complaint is just a poorly disguised combination of ignorance and—let’s make no bones about this—jealousy, so there’s nothing much to do but shrug it off.

harpy.jpg

Yes, it’s unfair to paint with such a broad brush, and yes, there are always exceptions on both sides, but there are still some significant differences between Japanese women and Western women that make most of us in “international marriages” glad we wound up married to one of the former instead of one of the latter.

Explaining the reasons would not be easy, would require too many generalizations to be meaningful, and she wouldn’t believe any of it anyway, so discretion is, as always, the better part of valor.

But this newspaper article on a subject entirely unrelated to Japan contains a comment that so clearly highlights the difference, it’s worth mentioning here.

The article appeared a while ago in the Washington Post about a career minor league baseball player named Rick Short who was having the season of his life. Short had spent about 10 years in the minor leagues without ever playing in a major league game until he was called up briefly twice to play for the Washington Nationals. He was one of those players good enough to get hired every year by a minor league team (and twice by Japanese teams), but not quite good enough to play in the major leagues. He didn’t hit many home runs, and hitters like that need to play very good defense.

Short was the subject of this article because he was having a tremendous season—he nearly hit .400 for the year, though he wound up with a .383 average. Hitting .400 for a full season hasn’t been done in the major leagues since Ted Williams pulled it off in 1941, and in the minor leagues since 1961 by Aaron Pointer, who had some famous singing sisters.

The reporter interviewed Short’s wife about their life together. Mrs. Short was not much of a baseball fan before they got married, but this is what she said:

“You have no idea how many people have told me, ‘I wouldn’t let my husband play that long without getting to the big leagues,’ ” she says. “I would say, ‘You never say never.’ I can’t make him quit; this is what he loves.”

There you have it in one sentence. Many women tell Mrs. Short, “I wouldn’t let my husband…” Oh, you wouldn’t? And when did women become the final arbiters of their husband’s career? As I said, generalizations are dangerous and there are always exceptions, but I can’t imagine many Japanese women presuming to take this attitude about their husbands’ career choice.

That isn’t to say they meekly roll over for everything their husbands do or want to do. For example, my wife would never let me hang out with seedy characters, spend the monthly house payment on pachinko, or have an affair with the lady next door. To be more precise, if I did, I would soon be wifeless. By the same token, if my wife had refused to allow me to become a freelance translator and insisted that I become a salaried drone at some company, she would have soon been husbandless.

Mrs. Short’s comment, You have no idea how many people have told me… suggests how commonplace that attitude is among women in the West. In my experience, however, Japanese women are often quite different.

Closer to Home

For example, another translator I know in Tokyo studied for his university degree at night in the States on the GI Bill while working full time during the day. He became friendly with several other men at school doing the same thing, but he was the only one of the group who stuck it out and graduated. All the other men were forced to quit school by their wives because they weren’t spending enough time at home. His Japanese wife was the only one of the women with enough foresight to realize that being patient until he earned his degree would pay off handsomely for the whole family down the road.

In my smaller city, there’s an American who married a local woman more than a half-century ago when he was in the Navy. They lived many years in America before moving to Japan after he retired (the second time). He once told me that he had an arrangement with his buddies in those days to go bowling and have a few beers one night a week. He said that along about 10 o’clock, he would suggest having another beer, but all his friends would look at their watches and reply, “Naw, it’s getting late, I’d better be getting home.”

Here’s what they really meant: If I don’t go home now, my wife will kill me.

That isn’t to say his wife thought it was just ducky for him to be hanging out at the bowling alley drinking beer, but she wasn’t presumptuous enough to say anything about it, especially considering that it was only one night a week and he wasn’t leaving his family starving and barefoot. And of course, if he woke up the next morning with a hangover, he knew better than to look to his wife for sympathy. “Don’t complain about it to me. You’re the one who decided to drink that much.”

That might as well be my wife speaking, and I suspect that’s just what the other translator’s wife would say, too. Perhaps the difference between Japanese women and Western women is one of a certain amount of respect for one’s partner as an individual. It would be ironic if that were the case, as Western women usually are the ones to complain about the lack of respect shown by their husbands to them as individuals. And Westerners often assert (among themselves, of course) that respect for the individual is a characteristic of Western nations, not Japan.

Japan? Are you out of your mind?

Speaking of presumptuous behavior, I’ll bring up another brief article that once caught my eye in The Japan Times. It was just a short bit of filler they ran on Saturdays called The Japanese Experience, so it wasn’t on line. The idea behind the column was that foreign residents would write a brief note about their life in Japan. This particular column was only five paragraphs long, and it was called Going Home Satisfied. The author spent 2 1/2 pleasant years in this country with his wife and children and was about to return to the United States. Here’s how he starts the second paragraph:

We came here because of a job opportunity of my wife’s. Many people back home thought we were crazy or running away from something when we told them we were moving to Japan.

As an American, reading that sentence makes me cringe. I wonder how many Japanese people would say the same thing to a friend or acquaintance in a similar situation?

People who live outside their native country for a long time eventually wind up shaking their heads and wondering whether their country has changed that much since they’ve been away, or whether they were the ones who’ve changed. Of course it’s a combination of both, but in most cases, the change within themselves has been greater than the change within the country of their birth.

Speaking for myself, I’m thankful it happened. And I’m keeping the change.

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70 Responses to “Men, women, Japan, and the West”

  1. Kesumo said

    Well, I guess I was born in the wrong country, then. One of the few fights I had with my ex was about him going to strip clubs. I wasn’t angry that he went one night, I was angry that he lied to me about it, thinking I wouldn’t approve. I reminded him that he was an adult, I wasn’t his mother, and as such it would be absurd of me to forbid him to do anything he wanted to do; however, lying to me again would leave him “girlfriend-less.” He still insisted on telling his friends I “forbade” him from going, which just pissed me off some more and was one of the reasons he eventually became an ex.

    That said, I agree that there is a prevailing tendency among American women to treat their husbands like one of the kids. Perhaps I don’t have this attitude because I have no desire to raise children or date child-like men.

  2. Turner said

    Very insightful and well thought out.

  3. Pam said

    Japanese wives don’t particularly want their husbands hanging around the house. (Which is why the men get labeled “nure ochiba” or “sodai gomi” after retirement) The working world is the man’s domain and the home is the woman’s. The children and the home, not the husband, are a Japanese wife’s top priority.
    Each society’s expectations of what a marriage “should” be like are quite different. Not all American women keep their husbands on a leash. Many of us aren’t interested in that, nor are we interested in playing out the old-school gender roles that are so heartily embraced in Japan.
    Some guys may use their wife’s supposed wrath as an excuse to go home because they’d actually rather be at home.

  4. Adam said

    This article is not about keeping people on leashes as much as its about the ego that raises one person over another. I certainly lived with an American woman who “wouldn’t let” me do stuff–aka. A Controller. Long gone now, thank god. And she was by no means a rare type. There really is this idea in the U.S. that the role of women is to shape men. Like women are inherently better or something.

  5. Pam said

    There are Controllers of both genders and all nationalities. My experience was with one who happened to be a Japanese man, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say all or even most Japanese men dictate what their wives can and can’t do. (Although I’m sure you don’t have to look far to find people who will assert that Japanese men feel they are inherently superior to women.)
    By observation I’d say that many Japanese marriages are less emotionally co-dependent than American ones. There seems to be a lot less “checking in” with the partner for permission. But that might just be because the roles are so neatly defined that there is no need to check. (None of the “Did you buy more toilet paper or should I?”, “Can we make it to Y’s party on Friday or do we already have something going on?, etc.)

  6. Ken said

    I don’t think much of a response is necessary beyond, “I don’t recall asking for unsolicited advice on my marriage.”

  7. Adam said

    Pam: The co-dependence thing seems pretty true to me and I think that’s a good point insofar as I am an amateur, totally opinionated social scientist. As far as controllers go, yes, obviously there are controllers of both genders. Completely true. But you’re not likely to see things about female ones in the States. No fiction, no articles, not much anything (and when the subject is approached an excuse for their behavior will be presented–IE. they’re crazy, emotionally wrung, or were pushed to extremes etc). This is opposed to something like domestic violence which, I was told in school anyway, was something all men were responsible for because all men had the potential to be one. It seems to me that all this may very well relate to the attitudes explored in Ampontan’s article.

  8. Sonia DE FAVERI said

    Indeed, the Western women who have never lived in Japan think that Japanese women are victims of their society and are submissive… this is what I thought too when I came ten years ago. To my utter disbelief and surprise, I have discovered a society of women whose values are solely based on money and security and an idle life of shopping- they are empty, heartless and egoistic people. We-Western wo;en are not jealous of Japanese women at all – we pity them so do we pity the men who fell for these callous shells! I haven’t yet met any Western men who was truly happy with a Japanese woman in Japan once the honey moon period of one year was over.
    If the author has found happiness with his Japanese wife, then she must be someone special – not the standard Japanese one and he should realise that he has been lucky meeting this special person. The bulk of them are true nightmares for their WEstern husbands.

  9. Aceface said

    Now that’s a rather shallow observation for someone who’s been here for ten years….

  10. Aceface said

    “I have discovered a society of women whose values are solely based on money and security and an idle life of shopping- they are empty, heartless and egoistic people. ”
    “we pity them so do we pity the men who fell for these callous shells!”

    What’s with all these relentless offense toward suspected Japanese collective consciousness and “We-pity-you”kind of pejorative view on host society,Sonia? Maybe your friend’s friend is an Al-Qaida member or something. But if that is not the case,what you’ve said is pretty much the equivalent of a 19th century white raj with monocule on their nose ranting on the customs of inferior orientals.

    Let me tell you my story.I have a non-Japanese wife and all of her relatives are nomads who are living by only eating what their livestocks are producing. Her parents are card carrying member of the communist party. Even though coming from that sort of family/social/cultural background,my wife LOVES shopping,probably more so than any of Japanese girls I’ve ever dated with.
    I admit she can be either”empty, heartless and egoistic”sometimes,but not all of that at the same time.I take that as the way it is.Isn’t that marriage is all about in any society?
    With that and my four years experience among American suburbia,I can safely say women-addicted-with-shopping-by-a-credit-card is definitly not a Japanese phenomenon and nothing wrong about as long as her husband can pay the bill.

  11. Bruce Smith said

    “I have discovered a society of women whose values are solely based on money and security and an idle life of shopping- they are empty, heartless and egoistic people.”

    Wow ! You have either never met any ordinary decent Japanese women or you have completely failed to understand them. True some Japanese women are “empty, heartless and egoistic people” but the same could be said of women from any country including presumably your country. But most Japanese women (or people for that matter) are just normal people with normal priorities and desires. You mustn’t get out much. Do you actually know any Japanese people ? Can you speak the language ?

  12. doinkies said

    I agree with Bruce. You can find “empty, heartless and egoistic” women addicted to shopping anywhere in the world. But not all women are like them. Certainly none of my Japanese female friends are like them.

    Don’t judge all Japanese women by the burikko.

  13. Overthinker said

    At the risk of making my own shallow observation, I would link Sonia’s comment to jealousy (despite her protestations that it’s not, it’s just “pity”) that all the men she likes in Japan (Japanese or not) are going out with Japanese women. That seems the only excuse for such a bitter statement, a plea to look beyond the superficial looks and find in her the antithesis of the “empty, heartless and egoistic” Japanese woman.

    Ace – visiting the relatives back home must be very interesting….

  14. Aceface said

    I thought I-shop-therefore-I-am is the transnational zeitgeist not just in Japan but elsewhere in this part of the world. Anyway Sonia is certainly in one wrong place to spend the rest of her meaningful non-materialistic life.Try somewhere like Afghanistan for a change.

    If there is any experience of someone she thinks important had run off with some airhead Japanese girl fully equipped with Italian brands from head to toe,then Sonia gets all my sympathies….But if that’s not the case,well..

    Make no mistakes.I don’t embrace shopping addicted Japanese women.But shopping is probably the only form of self expression these women can have fully in control of.And there are still lots of structural barrier to achieve career seeking or freedom from family life for these women in this society.Naturally I blame my own kind,instead of the weaker gender.

    OT:
    Should see our family reunion in Mongolia.It’s a clash of civilization.

  15. Adam said

    “The only form of self-expression these women can have full control of.”

    That’s kind of like saying that Japanese men drink because that’s the only form of self-expression they are in full control of, which for some of them may be true. I think your statement depends on exactly what women you’re talking about, where they are, and what jobs they want. I met a lot of Japanese women who, while they certainly felt pressure to conform (and who doesn’t, no matter the country?), definitely had spine and choices–why do you judge freedom purely in terms of career instead of the ability to define your own values and live by them? Or am I reading too much into your statement?

    And what good does it do to blame your own gender? The rules happened years and years ago while you weren’t around. Why generalize about your culpability because you have a dangly thing between your legs? Did YOU make the rules? Are you so strong? Sorry to go off, but I don’t see how–unless you believe blanket, across the board, black on white all women were universally oppressed by all men–that you can boil a society down to what you said.

  16. Aceface said

    I’m not talking about ALL of Japanese women,Adam.Just “Shopping addicted Japanese women” and what I tried to say in general was “they have their right”.

    “what good does it do to blame your own gender? The rules happened years and years ago while you weren’t around”

    Not that I am a militant feminist or want to cut off my dangly thing or anything.But the fact is Japan is a male dominant society and being a card carrying member of that society,I have some responsibility for what’s happening.No?

    Anyway what I’ve been screaming was an occasional rant on arrogant gaijin and not much of any “statement”.More to do with patriotic jingoism than gender politics.

  17. Adam said

    Fair enough. It wasn’t much to go on so I may have read too far into what you said. Still, values have a way of coming out in quickly said things. I think that before I can agree with your idea of Japan being a male-dominant society (I have my own reasons for thinking so) I want to know what your reasons are. What do you mean, exactly? What is “happening?” There’s a good chance we’re thinking of the same things but I’m curious anyway.

    As for your responsibility, I suppose all people are in some sense responsible for the society they live in, yes, since all people contribute to its presence whether they want to or not. But that’s a different thing from deciding what is good or bad within that society…and your subsequent moral obligations to your countrymen.

  18. Aceface said

    It’s been said for a while that Japan is an equal gender society until you graduate highschool. Which means gender discrimination is not exactly a mental nor cultural thing but has more of economic background.

    I am no expert on the subject here,but we all know that Japanese corporations are very reluctant in hiring women as much as men,even more so in promotion. This is mostly because of the life-time employment is being practiced by the almost all of the top firms in the country.And usually women are not the one who can enjoy the system of life-time employment fully. I can see that from watching my mother and in a way,my wife,currently working as a free-lance translator for now.They either abandoned their carreer for the sake of child reaing or husbands’ transfer.And that allow the companies to use women as a lot more flezible work forces that can be increase or decrease as the economic environment changes. While on the other hands,men have to be kept as card carrying member of the protected corporate society at all cost.
    This is how the Japanese economy had responded to the changing economic environment without any influx of foreign immigrants like the Western societies.All was possible because of this unequal structure of gender role in the labor market working at the expense of women.

  19. Sonia DE FAVERI said

    I have read with interest the comments about my own conclusion of the bulk of the Japanese female society. For your information, I am a happily married woman to a very kind and attentive Japanese man, my father is Italian,mymother is half German half French, my first husband was English , I as born in Belgium where we have three cultural societies and I was brought up to be open minded to people and different cultures. Because of my job, I was asked to travel extensively across Europe, the US and North Africa and I made a lot of friends in each continents over the years. I am a well-balanced person with no personal tragedies hidden in the closet.
    I am a simple person who likes nature, old fashioned values like for example family values, friendship.
    I have made my remarks based upon ten years of mixing with Western men married to Japanese women and living in Japan, mixing with Japanese women, speaking to them, listening to them as a neighbour/friend of a friend/as a member of the family or as an acquaintance. I tried to make friends by learning the language and mixing with them but … their values are much too materialistic … by the way Scarface(what is your name??) Afghanistan is not the only country where real life values can be found!! I have of course met a few extraordinary Japanese women, ambitious and intelligent but these women are despised by their own nationals …
    I am by no means jealous – how can I be !! if I do not share the same values – I am very disappointed and very sad…. after having scratched the surface… after having learned the language… after having lived here for ten years … to have discovered the real female reality in Japan. The Japanese women at least ninety percent of them – are I repeat by no means victims,they are powerful,ruthless and manipulative. Sadly!!
    If you are happily married then you married one who is in the ten percentand you are a lucky guy!!

  20. Aceface said

    ロバは旅をしても馬になるわけじゃない、というのは本当だね。

  21. Adam said

    Well, ok. So we’re talking about corporations. Yes, that’s true–I mean, blatantly. There is hiring discrimination in corporations. But does that equal oppression? I didn’t notice lots of guys happy to be working ridiculous hours. And their money–the money that is supposed to be their ticket to freedom and power–goes to their family and home…if they’re a good provider. There is an sense of obligation there.

    (I don’t know that expression)

  22. Adam said

    @Sonia:

    I think all that says more about your values than it does about Japanese women. What scale are you using to judge materialism? What’s the low end? Give us more country observations! I’m curious.

  23. Bruce Smith said

    Sonia, You do not seem to have a clue. You claim to have learned the language but somehow I doubt it. I really doubt the depth of your experience of Japan and also the depth of your perception. Perhaps you are some kind of hippy or left-wing person of limited intelligence. Very sad for you to so misjudge so many Japanese women.

  24. ponta said

    Sonia
    As I see it, Anpontan’s point is just to break up the stereotype that “Japanese women will do anything you say” and to point out that “the difference between Japanese women and Western women is one of a certain amount of respect for one’s partner as an individual”.
    I think people consider some your comments being made out of jealousy because of the overreaction.
    A person who who feels jealous tend to attack her rival, and you as a western woman attack Japanese women, saying that Japanese women’s value is” solely based on money and security and an idle life of shopping- they are empty, heartless and egoistic people.”"they are powerful,ruthless and manipulative”. If this is the case, they are monsters. Surely, for
    instance, my mom is powerful, she might fancy luxury life, spending an idle life of shopping, but I cannot say she is totally egoistic, heartless, ruthless and manipulative, though probably she has a bit of it. And the same applies to other Japanese women I know. And I, a Japanese male, have a bit of the traits listed and probably you do too.
    I think you have a great insight on Japanese women;You are also aware that it is not the case that Japanese women will do anything men say. I hope you will keep studying Japanese women and will get different perspectives as you mix with Japanese women of variety backgrounds.

  25. Aceface said

    Adam:

    Yes I’m talking about corporate society here.And you know there ia a word in Japan called 会社主義it’s a pun of the Japanese word for socialism社会主義.Company life is definitly eating up the sphere and personal free time where in the west is occupied by the civic society.
    The sort of social contract,men work hard to get wages home and women take control of that, is the reason why this inequality is not exactly justified,but has accepted.Problem is the life time employment is collapsing and there is not much of a beef for women in following this practice.And divorce rate is growing higher and higher(another indicationof women is becoming much more freeier)every year,this structural gender inequality must be dismantled.

  26. Anymouse said

    But the law does not force anyone to accept this system, and a great bulk of people have abandoned traditional gender roles since the 70′s. Look at all the unmarried young people and part time worker’s.

  27. Sonia DE FAVERI said

    Ponta….. is this your name ??… I am sorry if I have offended you or your mother … as I said in my previous messages, my remarks are based on my ten years experience here in Japan mixing with Japanese women and listening to their conversations…. sadly …. their way of seeing life and their future married life is what I mentioned.
    through my job I also encountered thousands of Western men married to Japanese women and once they have a kid … the change is drastic, I mean they become solely mothers and stop being married women.
    Anyway, if you live in Japan you must know all these things as no doubt your friends must have confided in you in the ame way as they did to me.
    Reality is harsh and it took me about two years to get over this reality.

    Again I am repeating that there is no feeling of jealousy towards this majority of the female society as I do not like not share their values….. I (and I am not the only one) feel really sorry for them.

    However what I also said is that they are not all sharing the same view. I have met really nice women with ambition and individuality and emotionally mature but they represent a mere ten percent — I would say —-of the female society.
    This doesn’t stop me liking the country, admiring its contrasts and enjoying the food. I also appreciate living in a secure environment It is also a land of freedom and countless opportunities for the people who are not afraid of challenges.
    I feel good in Japan and I am grateful to this country that it doesn’t impose too many requests on the foreigners living here.
    When the time will come for me to go back to Europe, I will keep only the good memories in my mind and all the good lessons I have learned living here.

  28. Overthinker said

    “When the time will come for me to go back to Europe,”
    I will be shocked at how materialistic and shallow Western women are as well, which my ten years in Japan had sheltered me from, even in a job that got me intimately acquainted with the complaints of “thousands” of married Western men.

  29. Aceface said

    “But the law does not force anyone to accept this system,”

    Agreed.But the law ain’t working in favor them either….

  30. ponta said

    the law ain’t working in favor them either….

    And the law ain’t supposed to work in favaor of anybody except for the affirmative action.
    (I am not really sure what the topic of the discussion is, though,ーーー 会社主義?)

  31. Aceface said

    Affirmative action? In Japan? Never heard such.

    What I tried to say is it is still difficult for any individual to go to court and walk out with satisfactory outcome.Thus people tends to stay inside of the line.No?

    The topic of the discussion can go anywhere especially you have a thread with colossal title like “Men,women,Japan and the West”.

  32. Bruce Smith said

    Sonia, By your own statements it is clear that you despise 90% of Japanese women. It must be good to be so superior to these millions of Japanese women. Enjoy your shallow and foolish life !

  33. bender said

    Well, I like women. Can’t do w/o them.

  34. ponta said

    Affirmative action? In Japan? Never heard such.

    But you’ve heard of the rule of the law, haven’t you?

    What I tried to say is it is still difficult for any individual to go to court and walk out with satisfactory outcome. Thus people tends to stay inside of the line

    Is that the outcome of kaisyasyugi? or male-dominant character of Japanese society?
    If you are talking about the the degree of the satisfaction with the court’s decision, few, men and women, would be completely satisfied with the outcome.
    Or is it another instance of going off the topic ?
    As far as “the male dominance” is vaguely defined, I am afraid the discussion will get nowhere.
    By the way ,

    They either abandoned their career for the sake of child rearing or husbands’ transfer.And that allow the companies to use women as a lot more flexible work forces that can be increase or decrease as the economic environment changes. While on the other hands,men have to be kept as card carrying member of the protected corporate society at all cost.

    This happens to be same as the radical feminist’s argument that gender and racial oppression is structurally built in the capitalist economy;the system needs a” reserve army” of unemployed and underemployed. Supposing the theory holds, it is not uniquely Japanese system.

  35. Aceface said

    “But you’ve heard of the rule of the law, haven’t you?”

    “If you are talking about the the degree of the satisfaction with the court’s decision, few, men and women, would be completely satisfied with the outcome.”

    Ever heard of “Japan-needs-more-lawyer” argument before,Ponta? I’m with Ardou on this one.Bringing your personal problem to court is too much costly(both financially and socially)for an ordianry Japanese.

    “it is not uniquely Japanese system.”

    Considering the small percentage of the women at the managing position,I’m afraid that is not true.

  36. ponta said

    Ever heard of “Japan-needs-more-lawyer” argument before,Ponta? I’m with Ardou on this one.Bringing your personal problem to court is too much costly(both financially and socially)for an ordianry Japanese.

    Another derailing of the topic?
    Yes, we need more laywers. Not only women but men also needs them. (But note the increase in the number of the laywer does not necessarily mean you can hire a lawyer cheaply.) What is your point anyway?

    “it is not uniquely Japanese system.”

    Considering the small percentage of the women at the managing position,I’m afraid that is not true.

    In that case you need to argue the reserve army of female unemployed and underemployed is uniquely in Japan but that the structure is absent in the west. But obviously it is the case with the West too that women have functioned as a reserve army of the underemployed.
    Probably what you tried to say is that the structure is present in Japan and in the west, but considering the small percentage of the women at the managing position, something different factors are working in Japan—is that what you tried to say? If so, the point is what they are. In other words, the way capitalist economy functions might explain the oppression of the minority if the radical feminism is right, but it does not explain the small percentage of woman at the managing position in Japan.

  37. bender said

    http://www2.mhlw.go.jp/topics/seido/josei/hourei/20000401-14.htm

    Take a look at the above. It’s a Japanese .gov site talking about subsidies you get for “positive action” (I think this is a new word coined in Japan- affirmative action is the normal way to say this). Japan is in the lower realm regarding female social participation, which does hurt Japan’s image, the government must think.

  38. tomojiro said

    ″But obviously it is the case with the West too that women have functioned as a reserve army of the underemployed.”

    That’s exactly why there are “Affirmative action” for women in the west (and in China for minorities).

    but not in Japan.

  39. ponta said

    That’s exactly why there are “Affirmative action” for women in the west (and in China for minorities).

    but not in Japan.

    What is the point? Japanese company should set up the quota for the female managers because the the oppressing structure of the economic system is not uniquely Japanese (despite Aceface’s claim to the contrary) and because the West has more affirmative action than Japan? Is that your point? If so, that is another argument. I do not necessarily disagree.
    BTW do you call Chinese policy for the minority affirmative action? I am flabbergasted.

  40. Aceface said

    “What is your point anyway?”

    Yes,the lawyer is needed regardless of the gender,but the point in question is,while the law does not force anyone to accept this system, it is very difficult for any individual to live against the norm that are demanded(or encouraged) by the system,and in that sense,women are probably in much more difficult position to live in a society where male is the dominant gender,which here I’m saying Japan is.

    “But note the increase in the number of the laywer does not necessarily mean you can hire a lawyer cheaply”

    I have adifferent opinion about that.

    “In that case you need to argue the reserve army of female unemployed and underemployed is uniquely in Japan but that the structure is absent in the west. But obviously it is the case with the West too that women have functioned as a reserve army of the underemployed.”

    Do I? My point is the reserve is “bigger”in Japan than the west.Not particulary seeking for “uniqueness”.

    “but considering the small percentage of the women at the managing position, something different factors are working in Japan—is that what you tried to say? ”

    Well,I think I mentioned that gender discrimination exist in employment exist in Japan.

    “but it does not explain the small percentage of woman at the managing position in Japan”

    It is a logical conclusion of fewer women in the office,naturally handful of them make it to the top.Not exactly is a mystery.

    “Another derailing of the topic?”

    If there is any other ongoing topic on this thread,you can always continue that without me,Ponta.

  41. ponta said

    Yes,the lawyer is needed regardless of the gender,but the point in question is,while the law does not force anyone to accept this system, it is very difficult for any individual to live against the norm that are demanded(or encouraged) by the system,and in that sense,women are probably in much more difficult position to live in a society where male is the dominant gender,which here I’m saying Japan is.
    Okay, so you were saying since “women were probably in much more difficult position to live in a society”, this society , men and women, needs more lawyer. Hmmm, an interesting way of constructing argument and an interesting way to introducing new topic. You can continue without me, Aceface.

    “But note the increase in the number of the lawyer does not necessarily mean you can hire a lawyer cheaply”

    I have adifferent opinion about that.

    Interesting. Any theory that the increase in the number of lawyer “necessarily” mean you can hire the lawyer in cheaper price?

    Do I? My point is the reserve is “bigger”in Japan than the west.Not particulary seeking for “uniqueness”.

    You used the fact that the reserve is bigger in Japan as the reason for
    Yes you do. Because you were saying

    (“it is not uniquely Japanese system.”)

    (Considering the small percentage of the women at the managing position,)I’m afraid that is not true.

    And the denial of the proposition that it is not uniquely Japanese system is that it is uniquely Japanese system. And you are supposed to argue for that. Or are you suggesting that we go talking about yet another topic? Or did you just deny the proposition just to contradict me?

    It is a logical conclusion of fewer women in the office,naturally handful of them make it to the top.Not exactly is a mystery.

    Note the equal number of women in the office does not mean they will be equally promoted. And in fact they won’t. That is also what we are trying to explain.

  42. Aceface said

    腐儒ってのは君のことだな。

  43. ampontan said

    Well, I just learned a new word in Japanese, and for that I’m glad.

    But in another way, I really wish I hadn’t. Let’s cool it.

  44. ponta said

    腐儒ってのは君のことだな。

    I just learned a new word, I am glad too.
    腐儒 全くの役に立たない儒者。くされ儒者。気力も意欲もない学者をののしっていう語。
    The discussion being useful or not, don’t get emotional nor personal when you are cornered. Just be logical, Aceface. I have just followed your topics which you have introduced one after another and I enjoyed the discussions.

  45. Sonia DE FAVERI said

    Bruce Smith, I feel you did not understand my comments…. but to be clear .. I do not despise the Japanese women…. in fact I despise no one….. I just feel sorry for them…. as there is so much more to life than just live the way most of them do.

    My life is by no means shallow as I am an active member of various charities involving children and cruelty against animals.

  46. tomojiro said

    Thanks Aceface

    I had a good laugh.

  47. ponta said

    tomojiro
    Don’t get personal.
    But at the time, we were talking about what is causing the unequal distribution, (or male dominant society), you were talking about, it seems to me, what should be done to improve it and hence, it is another story, another topic.
    Aceface argues, in my understanding, that Japanese economic system, especially the company’s need for a reserve army , is causing it.
    I didn’t deny it. I pointed out that it was not unique in Japan but universal in the capitalist society, according to the radical feminist.
    Aceface denied it, pointing out small percentage of Japanese female in managing position.
    It is a fact that there are small number of Japanese women in managing position. But first it does not explain what’s causing it, second, it does not
    negate the statement that same mechanism is working in the western system, the proposition Aceface denied.
    For some reason, Aceface started attacking me, not my argument.
    My point is that if the system mentioned is working in the west and in Japan, and if you want to explain why especially in Japan there is small percentage of women in managing position, some other causes in addition to a capitalist factor must be sought out.
    (the small # of the women in Japanese companies does not explain why there is small #, why Japan is male dominant society)
    I wonder what gave you a good laugh—the part Aceface started using ad hominem attack?

  48. Aceface said

    Ponta,Here’s some word for you.
    You are now derailing the topic,what’s the point?

  49. ampontan said

    I have a request for the people posting on this topic: Please return to gentlemanly behavior.

    よろしくお願いします。

  50. Aceface said

    We’ll do.Sorry for all that.

  51. bender said

    My life is by no means shallow as I am an active member of various charities involving children and cruelty against animals.

    Oh, so you’re against boiling lobsters alive?

  52. tomojiro said

    “I wonder what gave you a good laugh—the part Aceface started using ad hominem attack?”
    He made a witty comment and plus basically IMO what he wrote was correct. C’mon Ponta, everybody knows that you are a troll and you do trolling with intentions aren’t you?

    If you want to know what Aceface means, you don’t have to take his comments out of the context, place them in your own artificial context and disguise your questions as a question from someone who knows nothing.

    Just reread the entire discussion from the beginning with care. In fact, the most difficult posts to understand is yours, other are quite clear what they want to say (with all their biases included, and jumping to other topics included, of course mine are no exceptions and additionally I believe that your English is quite better than me). In your posts it is not clear whether you are really asking a question (which I doubt), or just trying to annoy Aceface (which I am inclined to think that this is your true motivations).

  53. ponta said

    For NJ readers, think twice the next time you want to say the Japanese are non-confrontational:the discussion here is being engaged among the Japanese.

    You are now derailing the topic, what’s the point?

    Do you want to talk whether I am a rotten Confucian(腐儒)or not, this time?
    I’ve just followed the topics you talked about.
    I think I made my point clear in the comment #47.If you think I misrepresented your argument and my “point”, just point out.
    Well, if you insist, I might add, if you want to discuss any further, concentrate on the argument, not on the person who argue. No hard feelings.

  54. ampontan said

    For NJ readers, think twice the next time you want to say the Japanese are non-confrontational:the discussion here is being engaged among the Japanese.

    Entirely in English, and I for one am impressed. There are not too many places, if any, where foreigners argue with each other in Japanese.

    Still, one more time.

    I REALLY WISH YOU GUYS WOULD COOL IT WITH THE NAME-CALLING!

    Strong disagreements: Fine with me! Swing from the heels.

    Name calling: NG!

  55. Overthinker said

    What the hell happened here? I’m out of it for a little while, and yikes.

    Just wanted to let Amp know that while I haven’t argued in Japanese with another foreigner (being the cool and pastoral guy I am) I do often find that it is the only language we have in common – eg I knew a Russian student at my university and we conversed in Japanese, my Russian being limited to “Dah, Tovarisch” and other such inanities. Plus a couple of swearwords I can’t spell….

    Oh, and I never quite can figure out how a nation famed for its warriors can also be famed for being “non-confrontational”…. (Ieyasu to Ishido: “look, would you mind terribly much if I just slaughtered your army here? Sorry to trouble you….”)

  56. ponta said

    My bad, I misused the tag.

    tomojiro
    Thank you.

    ( I guess a “troll” is your favorite word.
    As for my motivation, might it not be possible you might are projecting your mind?.
    As for the allegation that I put his statement out of context,I diguised as someone who know nothing(????), just point out which of my statements made you think so.)

    I think I have made the discussion clear in the comment #47. If it was too difficult, tell me which part was too difficut to understand.I am willing to explain.
    I would be glad if you just presented your argument for or against mine or Aceface’s.(←This is my point this time.)

    (It might be annoying for some people to be refuted , but it would be pleasure for other people to be aware of the insufficency of their argument:it brushes up their argument and helps them to get deeper and more nuanced understanding.
    Do you comment to annoy people?—was it your intention when you said, quite out of the context, you had a good laugh about Aceface’s ‘witty’ comment? I guess not. Likewise I don’t comment to annoy someone.I think your allegation is ungrounded.)

  57. tomojiro said

    I am sorry Ampontan.
    Had apparently too much beer last night.

    I will try to answer posts only which I am interested to do so. The only thing I want to have is a good and interesting discussion.

    But I don’t want to be dragged in a “tactical” battle in which someone uses acrobatically logics or sophistry to “prove” his agenda or “win” the battle.

    I promise that I will avoid that in the future. Won’t happen again.

  58. Bruce Smith said

    Sonia DE FAVERI Says:
    Wednesday, November 21, 2007 at
    Bruce Smith, I feel you did not understand my comments…. but to be clear .. I do not despise the Japanese women…. in fact I despise no one….. I just feel sorry for them…. as there is so much more to life than just live the way most of them do.

    My life is by no means shallow as I am an active member of various charities involving children and cruelty against animals.
    ——————————————————-

    So you feel sorry for 90% of Japanese women. So your way of life is right and theirs is wrong ? What pray tell makes you so superior to these tens of millions of Japanese women ?

  59. bender said

    So you feel sorry for 90% of Japanese women. So your way of life is right and theirs is wrong ? What pray tell makes you so superior to these tens of millions of Japanese women ?

    Maybe because they (Japanese) eat squid alive as iki-zukuri. That’s totally cruel. RAmen.

  60. Sonia DE FAVERI said

    To Bender and Bruce,
    This is my last communication as I feel contempt from your part…. I had the courage to say aloud what I have been hearing from the majority of Japanese women….and from married Westeners living in Japan.
    To conclude I would ask you to read the website of yet another Westener who has grasped immediately the values/ideals of most Japanese women … oddly you haven’t yet… so you must still be single.
    Please read his website http://westfearneon.com

    Must go as we are really short staffed… could not get enough volunteers in our community…

  61. bender said

    Calling women of a particular race as “shallow” strikes me as outright racism. I’m curious what kind of community do you live in.

  62. Bruce Smith said

    Sonia, No need for you to reply, just read what I have to say. If I went to Belgium and said that “I have discovered a society of women whose values are solely based on money and security and an idle life of shopping- they are empty, heartless and egoistic people” do you imagine that I would not be criticized ? So why do you imagine that you saying the same thing about Japan would not be met with criticism ? You really need to curb your arrogance. Seriously I doubt that you know the most important point about Japanese people including Japanese women: they are just people getting on with their lives. They are not special, they are not unique, they are neither good nor bad. They are merely human. To assert otherwise, as you do, is extremely naive. And since I despise stupidity yes I despise your silly opinions.

  63. Overthinker said

    Now I know Sonia is being ironic, linking to Westerner’s Fear of the Neonsign, which loves to slip in such phrases as “In Japanese lacrosse, the ball is not felt to symbolise the lopped testicle of the male oppressor and, as such, the girls do not shout for it with as much abandon or slam it into the goal with as much glee as they do in other countries. It’s all a bit tame really and the long-handled baskets are not even used to swipe the legs of the prettier players in off-the-ball vengeance cripplings.”

  64. Aceface said

    “Now I know Sonia is being ironic”

    Problem for that hypothesis is OT,you can actually find her names among French animal rights groups,if you google it added with”Belgique”….

  65. Overthinker said

    So does that mean she actually believes this stuff?

  66. Aki said

    Discussion here reminded me of a fascinating Japanese woman’s comment in other site.
    http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=697#comment-24198

    I suppose majority of Japanese women would sympathize with her view.

  67. Aceface said

    I am very much aware of THAT discussion.

  68. ponta said

    I hope Sonia will change her perception as she mixes with more Japanese women.
    I also hope Tomojiro will change his conspiracy theory that someone is trying to drag him into the discussion with a acrobatic (???)logic to lose his face as he gets to know that the discussion is for understanding rather than to win the battle like a sophist in ancient times .(Come to think of it, a sophist was annoyed and offended by innocent questions from Socrates.)

  69. Aceface said

    So is this comment shall end the discussion?

    All’s well that ends well….

  70. Aceface said

    I hate bring out dead topic comes alive,but this from NEOMARXISME blog.

    http://neojaponisme.com/2007/11/26/sumie-kawakami-interview/

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