The tower of babble at the Japan Times
Posted by ampontan on Tuesday, November 13, 2007
JAPANESE DIALECTS are fascinating, and I’ve written about them before.
But here’s an article that offers no help whatsoever to the linguistic novice.
The islands of Japan have many dialects, and students of the language often realize these variations are not taught in classrooms.
“Often realize”? Are there some students of the language who don’t realize dialects are not taught in classrooms? In the unlikely event any such people exist, what is it they think they are learning?
Foreigners, and Japanese, learn “standard Japanese,” which historically is closest to the dialect spoken in central Tokyo.
Let’s see…the foreigners…the Japanese…have we left anyone out? So, we’ve established that standard Japanese is just that–standard Japanese understood by everyone in the country.
And the proper way to squeal when you see something “cute” is not the ubiquitous “kawaii” one hears constantly on TV, but “menkoi.”
Instruction in the proper way to squeal is usually provided in the home, but sometimes children with negligent parents require tutoring.
Q: And what about Okinawan? Is that a separate dialect or a separate language?
A:…Many people, especially in Okinawa, believe it is.
Believe it is what? A separate dialect or a separate language?
It’s so like the Japan Times to hire a language expert to write an article about dialects, and then have an editor check it before publication.
Most young Okinawans now can speak standard Japanese…
Except for those locked in a broom closet by their parents and prevented from watching television or going to school.
Japanese-language schools tend not to offer special classes in regional dialects.
The reason schools “tend not to” offer special classes in regional dialects is the same as the reason they “tend not to” offer special classes in ancient Sumerian. They’re unnecessary.
I live in an area with a distinct dialect, and the only classroom where the local dialect is regularly spoken is the one for a small group of people studying local drama, called niwaka.
Q: I’m in a place where there is a strong regional dialect. Do I need to learn the regional dialect as well as standard Japanese?
A:…As to mastering a dialect, there seem to be two schools of thought.
The first is the “just learn standard Japanese” school. The logic here is that standard Japanese can be used in most parts of Japan and in virtually all major cities, and is considered polite everywhere.
Logic has nothing to do with it–it’s just reality. A more accurate sentence would read: “Standard Japanese is used everywhere in Japan, with the possible exception of some isolated islands you’re unlikely to visit, and no foreigner will ever be at a disadvantage for using it.”
“Virtually all major cities”? There is a major city somewhere in Japan in which standard Japanese isn’t understood by everyone?
This author is in desperate need of a style manual that warns against the excessive use of qualifiers, adverbs, and needless words.
Speaking in a regional dialect is sometimes frowned on in other parts of Japan in the same way certain Londoners dislike a Newcastle or York accent, or some Americans outside the South look down on those who speak with a southern drawl.
That’s a novel theory, albeit incorrect. A foreigner speaking a regional dialect even in the region where it is spoken is likely to be viewed by the natives as a pretentious airhead at worst or a performing seal at best. It should not be forgotten that a foreigner is unlikely to ever sound natural using the vocabulary or accent of the dialect. In any event, we already know it’s unnecessary.
The first thought of a Japanese encountering a foreigner speaking a regional dialect outside the region where it is spoken is likely to be: Who is this twit?
Those foreigners who want to live in Japan for more than a year or two, and wish to be taken seriously by the Japanese, would do well to avoid dialect altogether. An exception would be the occasional–very occasional–joke during casual conversation.
As for Americans looking down on Southern accents, most have been cured of that personality disorder now that people such as Lyndon Johnson, Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton have won national elections. Perhaps a small colony of sufferers still exists somewhere in an isolated pocket of Manhattan.
In contrast, I know a Japanese woman who studied in England and loved the accent. She became very good at imitating it. (She can speak normally when she wants to.) Foreigners are charmed the first time they meet her. They’re ready to gag by the third time they meet her. Here’s the interesting part: the people who dislike it the most are the British.
The second school of thought says it’s all very well to study standard Japanese in the classroom and to understand TV.
But if you’re not living where it’s used on a daily basis, you’d better master the local accent if you expect to truly communicate, or if you plan to live in that region for a long time.
You can count the number of adherents to the second school of thought on the fingers. Hasn’t the author already stated that all Japanese learn standard Japanese?
Foreigners are unable to “truly” communicate with a Japanese only when their knowledge of standard Japanese is insufficient. (And I include myself in that statement.)
And there is also something to be said about speaking and understanding a regional dialect that few of your friends, foreign or Japanese, can follow.
Yes, something indeed can be said: Don’t waste your time.
Overthinker said
“I know a Japanese woman who studied in England and loved the accent. She became very good at imitating it. (She can speak normally when she wants to.)”
Huh? She can speak “normally”? And what precisely is a “normal” accent for English? Seems to me that an English accent for speaking English is perfectly acceptable. Unless you have left something out, and mean Scouse or a thick Brogue or Cockney.
“But if you’re not living where it’s used on a daily basis, you’d better master the local accent if you expect to truly communicate, or if you plan to live in that region for a long time.”
I largely agree with this one, and I am surprised you are so scathing. You may not have to use it yourself, but others around you will, and if you want to understand what they are saying, in pretty much any situation that isn’t one-on-one (or even then), you need to know the accent/dialect. Communication does require listening to others, after all.
And I think linguists who are interested in dialects would be perfectly well advised to speak and understand them. I imagine you’re basically aiming at the Daniel Carr Yamagata-ben type of ‘tarento’, but there are alternatives.
Personally, while I incorporate a few dialect/accent words into my speech more or less unconsciously (as they’re what people around me use: eg dropping the ‘h’ from shiku 敷く), I don’t make an attempt to speak perfect dialect. Far too much effort.
ampontan said
Normal for native speakers and normal for foreigners who learned it in school first, without an accent, are two different things.
After listening to her, one Londoner told me that he much preferred an “accentless” form of English, one that was neither overtly English nor overtly American.
As for understanding conversations in dialect between other people, it certainly doesn’t require special study. Passive learning, a few intelligent questions to helpful informants, and paying attention covers most of it.
Overthinker said
Seriously, every English speaker, native or not, has an accent. Even when you learn at a school, where that school is and who the teachers are are going to affect your accent. Unlike Japan, we can’t claim a standard. Aside from Texan, Valley Girl, or the extreme British ones I noted, anything should be acceptable. London English is mixed up enough – from RP in Sloane St to Cockney in the East End, but if she talks like a (classic) BBC newsreader that should be perfectly fine, despite being very English.
bender said
I’m pretty sure there is such a thing as “standard American accent”, used in the media and such.
ampontan said
Bender: A few decades ago, the broadcasting schools used to teach the accent that was supposedly used in the Detroit area. (According to several articles I read at the time.) However, I used to live near Detroit for a while, so I’m familiar with that regional accent. (I can imitate it verbally, but it’s hard to put into writing.) The accent I heard there and the accent I heard in the media in those days didn’t seem to me to be a match, but then…
Overthinker said
Even that supposes that the American accent is a “standard.”
I have heard that Minnesota is the current US “ideal,” at least for telemarketing purposes.
Matt@occidentalism.org said
Overthinker, understanding does not equate speaking. I speak standard Japanese but can still understand dialects, either through exposure or guessing the meaning. Like Ampontan, dialects for me are mainly for jokes.
Buyo said
“I know a Japanese woman who studied in England and loved the accent. She became very good at imitating it. (She can speak normally when she wants to.)”
Reminds of when I lived in Kansas city for a while and someone on a bus, in all seriousness, asked me whether they had an accent!
Overthinker said
No, but the quote was “you’d better master the local accent if you expect to truly communicate” and to me communication is a two-way thing: you need to both hear and speak, and if you can’t hear, then you can’t say anything appropriate.
Hmm. I actually read the article, and it notes this, just before the bit about mastering an accent:
“There’s a difference between “learning” and “mastering.” The former meaning implies understanding enough to get by.”
So he’s making a distinction that wasn’t implied in the quoted section. I don’t know how much “mastering” is needed, but you certainly need enough to get by when people around you speak in dialect.
Buyo said
I`m British by the way.
ampontan said
[["you’d better master the local accent if you expect to truly communicate" and to me communication is a two-way thing: you need to both hear and speak, and if you can't hear, then you can't say anything appropriate.]]
Except that I would submit this is *never a problem* for a foreigner in Japan today.
I have *never* been spoken to by any Japanese that couldn’t speak the standard language. A few times they did address me in dialect when I first came, but when I told them I didn’t understand, they immediately switched to standard Japanese.
For some reason, no one addresses me in dialect anymore when meeting me for the first time. I suspect times have changed. (I also hear a lot less dialect than I used to.)
It also takes a while when first here for your ears to get accustomed to the new language (and the speed at which it’s spoken), but I found that I had pretty much gotten accustomed to the important parts of the dialect by about the time I got comfortable with listening comprehension in standard Japanese.
For more on my experiences with people using dialect in my presence, try that link I put up. There’s an interesting story involving two brothers.
Overthinker said
“I have *never* been spoken to by any Japanese that couldn’t speak the standard language.”
Fair enough. I have – in northern Japan, I know some people, and the father speaks nothing but thick Tohoku-ben. It can be thinner if he tries, but it’s always pretty thick, and especially at first I was utterly dependent on his wife to translate into normal Japanese. These are people I know well, and slowly getting used to Tohoku dialect has definitely helped improve my communication with him (we can now have a conversation).
Overthinker said
Actually, reading that first link about you and your father-in-law sounds very similar to the situation I described. And in the brothers story, knowing the dialect would have surely helped you follow the conversation.
KokuRyu said
Most young Okinawans now can speak standard Japanese…
Actually, this isn’t such an absurd statement. I lived and taught middle school in Tsuruga, in Fukui Prefecture, for about ten years. My students spoke Tsuruga-ben, which sounds a lot like Osaka dialect. I imagine that for a 12 year old, speaking “standard” Japanese would be pretty tough.
I picked up Japanese on my own in Tsuruga, and I learned the dialect first. In fact, it’s still a little tough for me to converse in standard Japanese. First of all, it sounds effiminate. Second, speaking Osaka dialect is a lot of fun. But it is not suitable for professional situations, although using the dialect is a great ice breaker.
Ken said
“The accent I heard there and the accent I heard in the media in those days didn’t seem to me to be a match, but then…”
I had argued with my friend who lived Chicago for a decade and took pride in his Mid-western accent as standard English.
I lived in NY in those days and love NY, where a few broadcasting headquaters are located.
He insisted anouncers’ accent is standard of Mid-west but I am suspicious about saying itself, “America is like this.” in a word.
bender said
New Yohkers speak like the guys on Sopranos, right?
T.K said
For some people, especially those blessed with a talent for languages, accent just sticks on naturally. It does take years of living in the same place and daily exposure, but I can think of several foreigners who speak my local accent with a natural ease. I doubt any of them made a deliberate effort, though; just like different linguistic registers, the “note” of the local dialect is something you can only learn by immersion.
Aaron said
I take issue with the suggestion that foreigners speaking Japanese dialects are looked down upon. If you can barely choke out standard Japanese then sure, trying to speak a dialect is like running before learning to walk, and people won’t react well. But I was a CIR in rural Ehime for two years and picked up a lot of the dialect. I spoke it every day, and I spoke it naturally. No one thought it was weird; they thought it was normal. Once people get over the hurdle of understanding that “this gaijin speaks Japanese,” it’s not much of a stretch to slip into dialect.
I do agree that the article was poorly written, with a weak understanding of the real role of dialects in Japanese culture. Certainly beginning and intermediate learners should prioritize the standard language over dialects. But I wouldn’t tell people to “not waste their time.” If language is only a means to an end for you, then feel free to stop when you’re able to “get by.” But I really enjoy being able to speak a dialect, and find standard Japanese to be a bit bland in comparison.
bender said
Aaron:
Ever encountered discontent? If a Japanese from another area tries to imitate a dialect, he/she is often frowned upon by the locals. Maybe not in Ehime? Definitely in Osaka/Kansai. Especially if you happen to be a Tokyoite.
I’d like to hear from Bill on this, too.
ampontan said
Bender: It seems to me the crucial difference is whether one picks it up naturally or whether one purposely imitates it.
I know a woman from Okayama who moved here about three years ago to work at an NGO. I speak with her regularly, and just talked to her last week.
I noticed for the first time that she had picked up the distinctive か at the end of both 形容詞 and 形容動詞. But she came by it naturally because that’s how all the other people in her office speak. It sounds OK on her.
I understand how that works. When I moved from Maryland to Virginia at the age of 14, it was real easy to pick up something like “y’all” very naturally. I still use it sometimes.
It was also easy to pick up “skoshe”, originally from Japanese. There are a lot of Navy people there, and it probably got into their conversation via Sasebo. “Move it to the left just a skoshe.” It works really well in English and is immediately understandable.
On the other hand, imitating something like that is deadly, and is usually very obvious. That’s why it’s so dangerous for foreigners. They (including me) aren’t likely to be able to know just how phoney it might sound, and the everyday Japanese aren’t likely tell them the truth to their face.
Aaron: Don’t misunderstand. I’m speaking in general, and making no specific reference to you.
bender said
Didn’t know the existence of the word “skoshe”. I googled it, and found lots of interesting articles. It’s kind of like “oh-rai” (alright) in Japanese.
I often hear complaints about the Japanese dialects being used in the morning 15-minute dramas on NHK (Asa-dora). The actors/actresses are terrible imitators, according to those who genuinely speak them. So you’re probably right that purposeful imitation aren’t taken well. Maybe it’s because imitations often end up being wrong (not just the grammar, but also and maybe foremost the pronunciation).
But I guess it won’t hurt to say “hello” or “good-bye” in dialects.
ampontan said
Bender: I heard someone say once that Mifune did a good Tohoku-ben, but without Googling it I don’t know where he came from.
Here’s another one just as good as skoshe. In Saga and Nagasaki (and only those two, they tell me) people use バッテン at the end of a sentence instead of けれども. They sometimes even use が at the end of that. People around here swear it comes from the English “but then”.
There’s another one: ザットナカ, which means a situation is 大変. Some folks who know English like to joke that it means “there is no ‘that’”, but I’m not convinced!
As for “oh-rai”, the first time I went to Busan, I had breakfast and went out on the sidewalk in front of the small hotel to look at the neighborhood while waiting for the rest of the group to come out. There was a small truck backing up in front of the hotel, and to stop the driver the other guy said “oh-rai”. I almost fell over in surprise!
Where I grew up in the US, guys just go: “OK…OK…OK…HO!”
bender said
If Koreans use “oh-rai” exactly like the Japanese, it must come from the colonial period, predating American GIs. Maybe it comes from Britain, because Americans don’t use the word that way.
For forms of speech to spread, I think it must be common enough in the original spoken language to merit notice. Just like “sukosh”. Or “honcho”. I’m not sure if I hear “but then” a lot. Maybe only “but”. I wonder why other notable English colloquialisms have not spread. Like swear words.
Aaron said
Bender > I’ve never gotten a bad reaction. I haven’t been in the company of other dialect-speaking foreigners that I can think of, so I also haven’t seen anyone else get a bad reaction (most of my foreign friends in Ehime were still learning the standard language and had no clue about the dialect).
I think Ōsaka is probably more defensive of its culture, especially versus Tōkyōites. Ehime kind of knows it’s small stuff, so there isn’t a need to get uppity.
Ampontan > Of course you’re not talking about me. But while your criticism of the article is mostly spot-on, I think you’re doing Japanese learners a disservice by dissuading them from learning dialects at all.