An F to the prof for his understanding of East Asia
Posted by ampontan on Saturday, October 27, 2007
JOURNALISTS AREN’T THE ONLY ONES that have difficulty comprehending Japan and the rest of Northeast Asia. Academics can be even worse.
Quebec native Daniel A. Bell is a Professor in the Department of Philosophy of Tsinghua University in Beijing. He has been studying China and Confucianism in East Asia for at least 10 years. In this article in Dissent magazine, he discusses the Chinese craze for soccer and the reasons for their passionate support of powerhouse international teams.
Not only does he present more goofy ideas per column inch than I’ve seen in years, but despite crawling over, under, and all around the topic, he fails to spot the reason for this phenomenon. Yet the reason is so obvious it might as well be painted in day-glo colors, and should be immediately apparent to any scholar of East Asia.
He also doesn’t seem to know very much about sports.
Here is his explanation about the popularity of the World Cup in those countries without a team to root for in the event:
In many parts of the world—from South Africa to India to China—the bulk of ordinary citizens became crazed about soccer during the World Cup, even without any national team in the competition. This worldwide obsession can be explained partly by the usual commercial considerations: clever branding and marketing that tap the widespread desire to be part of a global event in countries of rising affluence.
Why is it so difficult for those in academia to show some simple respect for “ordinary citizens”? He thinks the poor sheep worldwide are herded into an obsession prodded by “the usual commercial considerations”. It doesn’t occur to the professor that people all over the world—Europe and other affluent countries included—follow the World Cup for the simple reason that they like soccer. A lot.
A fellow world music fan I know in the Netherlands made a tape for me some years ago from discs in his private collection of soccer songs from around the world. (In return, I sent him a small bottle of shochu that he liked so much he made me another tape!)
The music comes from the following countries: Senegal, Nigeria, Zaire, Ghana, Mali, South Africa, Jamaica, Brazil, and several I can’t identify because I’m not familiar with the musicians or their language. All are about the exploits of local soccer heroes. None have to do with the World Cup.
Those clever marketing mavens seem to be everywhere, don’t they?
Turning his attention to the soccer mania in China, he notes their high level of interest in the 2006 World Cup:
- “Because the matches were played in the middle of the night, many Beijingers slept during the day.”
- The end-of-year school examinations were purposefully (sic) scheduled during the three-day interval between the two rounds.
The Chinese, Prof. Bell reports, are ga-ga about certain teams around the world:
- “In the 2002 World Cup, the CCTV hostess Sheng Bin wept openly at Argentina’s early exit.”
- “When England went down in defeat against Portugal in 2006, my son’s piano teacher’s husband was so depressed he could barely get out of bed.”
In fact, he reproduces the translated play-by-play of a Chinese announcer during the critical moment of the quarterfinal match between Italy and Australia.
China’s best-known soccer announcer, Huang Jianxiang, was unable to control his enthusiasm when Fabio Grosso went down in the penalty area and a last-minute penalty kick was awarded to the Italians.
As Francesco Totti prepared to take the penalty kick that would win the match, Huang shouted himself hoarse.
“Totti! He is about to take the shot. He shoulders the expectations of the whole world. Goooooal! Game over! Italy wins! Beat the Australians! They do not fall in front of Hiddink again! [Hiddink, the Australian coach, had led the South Korean team that ousted Italy in the 2002 World Cup.] Italy the great! Left back the great! Happy birthday to Paolo Maldini! Long live Italy! The victory belongs to Italy, to Grosso, to Cannavaro, to Zambrotta, to Buffon, to Maldini, to everyone who loves Italian soccer! Hiddink lost his courage faced with Italian history and traditions! He finally reaped what he had sown! They should go home. They don’t need to fly as far as Australia as most of them are living in Europe. Farewell!”
After trying but failing to get a grip on several other marginally related topics like so many bars of soap in the shower, the professor uses the announcer’s hysteria to argue that perhaps people in the West are too neutral.
The ideal of neutrality as applied to various spheres of social life—not simply for judges and referees, but also for announcers, officials, teachers, even parents and friends—seems too deeply ingrained in Western societies.
I can see how some professors might look askance at the ideal of neutrality. It could cramp their style in the classroom.
Then there’s “the ideal of neutrality for parents”. Just what is he trying to say here? The only neutrality parents should exhibit is toward their children, i.e., not favoring one over the other(s). I hope for his children’s sake (if he has more than one) that he’s being neutral with them.
Up to this point, Prof. Bell, on balance, has done his readers a service. It was fascinating to read about this extraordinary Chinese passion for soccer, which I’ve never seen reported anywhere else. (Many Japanese love soccer too, but they’re not even close to being this extreme.)
But despite his academic training, years of study, and residence in China, he comes up with some ideas to explain this phenomenon that are just downright silly. The second year students aren’t the only sophomoric ones at university.
The two best-read newspapers in China, selling well over a million copies each every day, are Cankao Xiaoxi and Huanqiu Shibao. They cover mainly international news. Many popular local papers cover local news. In both cases, the reporting does not stray too far from the facts and deals with issues that people care about. All national news, however, is official propaganda and thus uninteresting. So the Chinese develop strong local and international interests but pay less attention to national affairs than do most citizens of liberal democratic countries.
I’ve read international news in English-language Chinese newspapers, particularly about Japan and the United States. The propaganda sticks to your fingers when you turn the pages. And I’ll lay a substantial wager against the claim that coverage of local news “does not stray too far from the facts”.
Who else besides a university professor would make such an unsubstantiated sweeping generalization about the interest of the Chinese people in national affairs? Well, OK, other than a journalist?
Don’t the citizens in liberal democratic countries regularly vote to choose their leaders? Has Prof. Bell considered that this comparative lack of interest in national affairs in China—if it actually exists–might be due to the lack of real elections?
Here’s one of the professor’s theories for the Chinese preference for strong foreign teams:
There may also be a special form of internationalist nationalism at work. The support for established teams may be an expression of a more general appreciation for nations with long and rich histories and cultures.
“Internationalist nationalism”…what an intriguing concept. Now all we have to do is figure out what it means. Surely it means something. After all, it’s so commonplace, the Chinese interest in established teams is due to a “special form” of that phenomenon “at work”.
One also has to wonder…is he serious about the Chinese having a general appreciation for nations with long and rich histories and cultures? The same China whose people refer to themselves as “the flower in the center of the world”?
Of course, Japan also has a long history with a correspondingly rich culture. One of these days, perhaps I’ll see a Chinese tourist in this country behave toward the locals with something other than disdainful condescension. (Young Chinese college students are a different matter, however.) And then there’s the stunned reaction of Japanese who visit China–including young Japanese college students with an interest in the country–after their initial encounter with Chinese attitudes at first hand.
If you found Prof. Bell’s ideas about China entertaining, wait until you see what he thinks about Korea:
In the 2002 World Cup, the Koreans were fanatical supporters of their own team. But after the team’s loss to Turkey for the third-place spot in front of its home crowd, the Korean team formed a circle and collectively bowed to the audience as a show of gratitude. The crowd responded with a tremendous ovation, for the Korean team and, more surprisingly, for the victorious Turkish team. There may be particular reasons for this response—many South Koreans are grateful to Turkey because of its support in the Korean War half a century ago—but such moving scenes show how Confucian-style rituals can tame the excesses of national bias. It is no coincidence that Korea is widely held to be the most Confucian country in East Asia.
There’s a name for this sort of logic. It’s called “Wet streets cause rain”.
He’s right about Confucianism in Korea—the Japanese make the same point in books and other material for a Japanese audience. But the professor’s lack of research will be immediately apparent to every Japanese.
Anyone who has ever watched the national high school baseball tournament in Japan knows that all the teams—winners as well as losers—make a point of bowing after the game to their supporters, who are seated in specific sections of the stadium. So much for that theory.
Everyone in Japan saw Korean behavior during the World Cup matches played in South Korea, and–more importantly–remembers Korean behavior towards Japan before and during their joint hosting of the competition.
How odd those Confucian-style rituals didn’t “tame the excesses of national bias” for the Koreans then. Ah, but the professor is in China. And it’s so much easier to theorize while watching a TV set.
If the South Koreans are so grateful to Turkey for its support during the Korean War a half-century ago that they’ll applaud the national soccer team that eliminates them in the World Cup, they must strew flowers at the feet of every American who walks by.
Prof. Bell seems to be forgetting an important rule for academic research: Don’t make up stuff off the top of your head.
But perhaps I shouldn’t be so harsh with the man. He doesn’t seem to get out and about much.
My own loyalties lie with underdog teams….Perhaps left-wing political sensibilities naturally lend themselves to support for teams from relatively poor and not-so-famous countries.
You’re not surprised to find out he’s a leftist, are you?
A win would give a great boost to their national confidence, and it might have positive economic spillovers.
After all the economic deprivation they’ve caused the long-suffering masses over the years, is it too much to ask that leftists keep their economic theories to themselves?
Not to mention such phrases as “economic spillovers”?
The professor admits he originally thought the Chinese would root for regional favorites in the World Cup.
In the 2002 World Cup, I expected that Asian solidarity would play an important role. The Chinese team had been eliminated in the first round, but the South Korean team performed unexpectedly well. I watched the quarter-final match between Germany and South Korea in a Beijing bar, and to my surprise the crowd burst into applause when Germany scored and eventually won the match.
Come on, admit it–the professor’s naiveté is almost touching.
But he still can’t figure out why the Chinese root for the strong teams. The following comment about the Australians should have been enough to clue him in:
The Chinese won’t cheer for underdogs or relatively small teams and countries without substantial talent, global impact, or long histories. In soccer, this means they won’t cheer for teams like Australia (“Would you cheer for a bunch of beer-guzzling upstarts?” as one friend put it) if they’re up against the more established soccer powers….If Australia develops into a global soccer power over, say, thirty years, as opposed to scoring occasional fluke victories, it will gain the sympathy of the Chinese.
Then he actually stumbles across the reason without recognizing it:
There is no such preference for the underdog in China. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Chinese fans support traditional soccer powers such as Germany, England, Brazil, Argentina, and Italy. It is difficult to overestimate the passion for such teams.
The man’s made the study of China and East Asia his life’s work and he’s never heard anyone say that societies in this part of the world have traditionally been structured vertically, rather than horizontally?
If I were him, I’d seriously consider retiring to the countryside, shaving my head, standing under a waterfall, and contemplating my errors.
Of course the Chinese favor strong soccer teams.
A primary characteristic of vertical societies is showing deference and respect to the top dog, not the underdog.
The Chinese aren’t going to follow teams from countries populated by “beer-guzzling upstarts” capable only of fluke victories. And it’s astonishing that an academic specializing in the region would seriously consider the idea that the Chinese—perhaps the most ethnocentric nation on the planet—would support a soccer team from Korea.
Here’s another tip for academic research. When you observe a country, you’re actually supposed to pay attention.
Wait, there’s more. Wrap your head around this one:
Even though I’m from Quebec, I’m hard-pressed to explain what’s great about my home province…
Shall we help Prof. Bell count the ways in which Quebec might be preferable to China?
1. The people in Quebec get to vote in free elections to choose their national and local leaders.
2. The people in Quebec have freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly…
3. The people in Quebec live in a stable and peaceful society. In China, however:
Officially reported instances of social unrest (involving 15 or more people) have risen from 8700 in 1993 to 87,000 in 2005 (the latest available figures). This is about 240 instances each day.
4. The people in Quebec get to choose how many children they want to have.
5. The women in Quebec are not subjected to forced sterilizations if they have more children than the government tells them they can have.
6. The people in Quebec don’t have to worry that their male children will be kidnapped and sold because of the government’s policy of limiting the number of children per family.
7. The people in Quebec aren’t forced to marry people selected by the government for the purpose of creating a master race.
Think I’m making that up? Then read this:
Avid basketball fans and China watchers undoubtedly know that the gigantic Yao (Ming, the NBA star) is the product of a genetic experiment. He is the offspring of a mother who was 6 ft., 2 in. and a father who was 6 ft., 10 in. The two were forced to marry by Chinese officials eager to dominate sports globally…Yao – who was required to play basketball whether he wanted to or not – received special treatment from growth experts from birth, and the treatments seem to have succeeded beyond anybody’s imagination.
Those “treatments” must have been special to create a guy 7 ft., 5 in. tall. Heaven only knows what chemicals they pumped into the boy’s system during his youth.
Even more astonishing, Prof. Bell is aware of #7, but it doesn’t seem to bother him much:
China’s best athletes are selected at a very young age and made to undergo rigorous state-sponsored physical education, with little attention paid to other forms of learning. The athletes are used by the state to score political points, and the announcers at Olympic Games make less-than-subtle claims about the greatness of the Chinese nation.
Now try to imagine the language he would use if it were Japan or the United States employing the same methods to create a race of Olympiad ubermenschen. (Unless he thinks that Chinese success is due to a triumph of the will.)
But perhaps we shouldn’t be so astonished. According to a reviewer of Prof. Bell’s book, Beyond Liberal Democracy (interesting title, that), he excludes “the rule of law” as one of the pillars of democracy, and thinks that “Cultural revolution is a good idea badly implemented”. (See the review on the Amazon website.)
His exclusion of “the rule of law” might not be so surprising when you remember that the professor thought the idea of neutrality for judges was “too deeply ingrained” in society.
Just what the world needs: more activist judges with their fingers on the scales of justice.
Ah, but it’s not just Prof. Bell. I’ve saved the most astounding piece of information in the article for last:
The idea for this essay emerged from exchanges that took place during the 2006 World Cup on ChinaPOL, an e-mail list of academics and journalists working on Chinese politics.
The professor isn’t the only one responsible for these theories. They were debated and approved by 10 other people!
It was H.L. Mencken who observed that there isn’t an idea so crazy that a college professor wouldn’t take it seriously.
Or several ideas. Or 11 professors and journalists.
Postscript: I ran across this article a year ago, when I was preparing this site, but it’s not really time-dependent. Also, be sure to look at those linked articles. They’re worth reading.
Richardson said
Probably thinks the same of communism. I think Bell “is a good idea badly implemented.”
Overthinker said
The learned professor does say “This worldwide obsession can be explained partly by the usual commercial considerations” – at least partly – which suggests that he is open to the idea that maybe people just like soccer, but is also suggesting that commercial hype plays a part, which seems valid to me.
“The ideal of neutrality as applied to various spheres of social life—not simply for judges and referees, but also for announcers, officials, teachers, even parents and friends—seems too deeply ingrained in Western societies.”
I agree this statement is insane. And while I agree that the statement about Chinese journalistic intergretity also needs to be taken with all the salt in Lop Nor, I think there might be other reasons other than the lack of democracy to explain the purported lack of interest in domestic issues. Such as speaking out too long and loudly about the wrong issue (ie the right issue) can get you in a whole heap of trouble, and while it might not be as bad as it once was, a whole generation or more has grown up in the shadow of the Cultural Revolution and has survived by shutting up. More freedom of speech would help a lot here – as it is, a lot of internal pressure is vented as external attention (eg those recent anti-Japanese riots). In other words, it’s the “liberal” rather than the “democratic” being lacking that I think is the more proximate cause.
“Of course, Japan has a longer history than any country in Europe, with a correspondingly rich culture.”
Are you defining countries by the narrow definition of modern nation-state? That the history of Germany and Italy for example does not exist prior to the 19th century? Or that the history of the UK stops when it was not United? That’s the only way I can see that this statement works, as otherwise the Greeks, for example, might take strong issue with this.
“Prof. Bell seems to be forgetting an important rule for academic research: Don’t make up stuff off the top of your head.”
No, no, the most important rule is, “don’t make up stuff off the top of your head and write about it in plain English that anyone, even those plebs without a PhD, can understand. Use words like ‘discourse’ and ‘post-modern’ a lot, and mention Foucault, the Other, and ‘essentialising’ every other paragraph.”
“You’re not surprised to find out he’s a leftist, are you?”
Of course not. Most humanities profs tend to the left wing, in the same way that most CEOs tend towards the right. It’s a self-sorting situation. And can only be stronger in a Chinese studies prof working in China.
As an aside, I tend to think that the idea of Western societies as traditionally horizontal as opposed to vertical is usually over-stated, and that there is less difference than often stated. The modern ideals may be horizontal, but there has always been a pretty clear vertical hierarchy. It seems to come from the idea that the Orient and the Occident are fundamentally different.
“Even though I’m from Quebec, I’m hard-pressed to explain what’s great about my home province…”
Perhaps he just doesn’t like the French. Maybe he’d say better things about Britishy Columbia, for example….
“he excludes “the rule of law” as one of the pillars of democracy, and thinks that “Cultural revolution is a good idea badly implemented”.”
Impressive. I can kind of twist the first one into some form of sense if you take it to mean that the rule of law is not unique to democracy, but rather to almost all societies, and that the pillars of democracy should be things unique to democracy, but it’s a pretty wrenching twist. As to the second…again, a tiny kernel of truth, in that the CR had a very very few good ideas (freedom of speech was one of them, and actually made a part of the Constitution, but in practice it just meant the freedom to criticise counter-revolutionaries, and a bit of the ol’ anti-feudalism isn’t all bad either) but a lot of very bad ones and was appallingly implemented, in a way that makes the word “appallingly” seem weak and fluffy. So I would love to know why the learned professor labels the entire movement a Good Idea.
Looking at the actual article, I note that even though he dismisses the idea that Chinese would support Australia, he then talks about the backlash led by these presumably non-existent Australian supporters that was powerful enough to get an official apology. One thing I do see too often in Oriental studies (especially for mass consumption) is the bold declarative statement that “The Japanese….” when in reality there are pluralities and masses of divergent views. How many Western commentators ranting about the Japanese view of history (esp WW2), for example, acknowledge that by far the most vocal and powerful opposition to groups like the Tsukurai come from other Japanese? Perhaps these few words by our learned professor about the Aussie thing sum it all up – when introducing the discussion on the dissent, he starts of with “To my surprise”. In other words, the Chinese failed to act as his pet theories predicted.
“Confucius’s account of the gentleman-archer echoes the rituals of sumo wrestlers: “Exemplary persons are not competitive, but they must still compete in archery. Greeting and making way for each other, the archers ascend the hall, and returning they drink a salute. Even during competition, they are exemplary persons.””
They do echo the rituals? Aside from not being overly emotional, which isn’t really a ritual, how do they compare?
I took a look at Dissent, a pretty left-leaning journal, and found another article by the learned professor, in which he makes it clear that he has spent far too much time reading utopian SF:
“In the Marxist framework, the moral point of the whole ugly process is to free the large mass of humankind from the need to engage in drudge labor. Technology will be highly developed, and at a certain point—the moment of revolution—private property will be abolished, and machines made to do work for the betterment of humanity instead of the interests of one small class. Technology will do the dirty work needed to meet people’s physical needs, and people will finally be free to go fishing, read books, design and create works of beauty, and so on.”
(http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=767)
“And the government has been more active in promoting workers’ rights. It forced Wal-Mart to accept the state-controlled union in its Chinese outlets”
Do these two sentence really belong together? I’m no expert, but I remember reading a few reports that suggest it’s not quite that rosy.
“the possibility of a bicameral legislature, with one political institution composed of democratic leaders chosen by free and fair competitive elections and another of meritocratic leaders chosen by free and fair competitive examinations, is more consistent with commitments to Confucian meritocracy and modern-day democracy.”
This could be interesting. Certainly fairer than the British system of inherited political power in the House of Lords. The second house would be basically the House of Bureaucrats, though, and since they infest the actual government apparatus anyway, in any modern country, I’m not sure we need more of them.
The prof’s argument against democracy:
“It is another to ask voters to make informed judgments about empirically complex issues such as settling interprovincial disputes or assessing the trade-off between economic growth and safeguarding the environment for future generations, the sorts of issues that may be only distantly related to their lives. And what about asking “the people” to make life-and- death decisions such as whether or not to go to war or how best to curb virulent contagious infections?”
Basically, “the people are morons who don’t know enough about the important issues.” Can’t help but think he has a point though – how many Americans voting next year truly grasp the complexities of the many issues, and how many just vote for the guy in the right party, or who they have a better gut feeling about?
Anyway, this response is far too long already.
ampontan said
“Basically, “the people are morons who don’t know enough about the important issues.” Can’t help but think he has a point though – how many Americans voting next year truly grasp the complexities of the many issues, and how many just vote for the guy in the right party, or who they have a better gut feeling about?”
Overthinker: I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the term “republican” (small R) in the American political debate, but there are a significant amount of people (usually on the right) who insist that the US is supposed to be a republic and not a democracy (not that they are incompatible). The idea of a republic being that most citizens cannot be expected to master all the details of difficult issues and conduct their daily lives, so they select representatives to do it for them.
Even some people who would die to defend democracy insist it is just a way to choose leaders, not a method of governance.
Don’t worry about the length of your posts. It’s fine with me. I was going to go into a whole thing quoting Malcolm Muggeridge on the “liberals” such as Shaw and the Webbs sucking up to Stalin, and comparing that to Bell and the Chinese, but I thought mine was too long as it was!
Overthinker said
Ampontan – I’ve heard of the “republic vs democracy” issue, but haven’t looked at it in much detail. I tend to agree with it – I would not claim to have mastered many issues relating to international diplomacy or economic or the various other issues. However that does leave the problem of how to choose the leaders who devote their time to these issues – personality and popularity? Back in ancient Greece, democracy was far more limited, both in eligible voters and the scope of those elected, so it was easier to have an informed opinion. As Bell says, direct democracy can work well at the local level, but to make informed decisions about the national leadership may be another matter. How to choose an expert in a subject you yourself know little about? I have read that most Americans (or any citizens of a democracy) vote for their “traditional” party – if your family has always voted GOP, then you tend to vote GOP, regardless of who the actual candidate is. That’s one reason I feel that “true democracy” (at least in the US sense; in the UK you vote for parties not Prime Ministers, which can help soften the cult of personality) cannot be achieved while we still have political parties….
Just thinking out loud here, but most power structures seem to be meritocracies, from the army to academia: if you’re good, you go up and gain power by being good at using power. But it’s a fine line between General and Dictator, in terms of authority and the chain of command. One hopes that by the time someone has reached the level of General, they are wise and mature enough to handle that responsibility. But then Mao, for example, came up from the bottom, and look what happened. So how to ensure personal freedoms and sane government? Power corrupting vs responsible rule. It’s a tricky question and has been debated for centuries, so I’m not about to offer a solution right now – not until it’s time to vote for next year’s Nobel Peace Prize at least….
More thinking out aloud, but in some ways commercialism/market forces are the greatest democratic example we have. People vote with their money to make Coke and Jusco and McDonalds leaders. But then we have laws to prevent monopolies. So if we could have a multitude of governments all competing for citizens, that could be an interesting experiment. Abolish all immigration barriers, and see what happens – if your chosen government goes bad, you leave and find another. Of course in reality I can predict what would happen, and while Walmart may like everyone in the world to shop there, there aren’t many countries that would like everyone in the world to live there…. So probably quite insane in reality. But if there were incentives to get more people to live in your country – tax bases or something, polygamy made legal, cars banned, or anything – perhaps we could have a marketplace of governments….
Anyway, just some random thoughts that probably don’t have anything to do with the topic.
bender said
he excludes “the rule of law” as one of the pillars of democracy, and thinks that “Cultural revolution is a good idea badly implemented”
It took so much effort for Japan to embrace that principle…of course it’s intertwined with democracy! Without democracy, people can’t get the benefit of the law in the courts…they get screwed if they resist against “authority”. Having some code doesn’t automatically mean there’s “rule of law”. He must be nuts.
The Cultural Revolution comment is just lame. Disregards the level of suffering and pain involved.
I want to add to the Quebec list:
8. The people in Quebec gets to preserve their minority French culture with impunity
BTW, how did he figure Australia was an underdog? They’re generally great at sports. I remember the Japanese medias pretty much confident that Japan will beat them in the World Cup, but I thought they had scant understanding of how formidable the Aussies can be. And look hat happened. PRC is the real underdog here. The impression I get about their soccer enthusiasm is that it’s quite nationalistic- in line with what the state preaches. Nationalism in an authoritarian state. Sounds creepy.
Overthinker said
“Without democracy, people can’t get the benefit of the law in the courts…they get screwed if they resist against “authority”.”
They get screwed anyway. If they resist then the police (the physical authoroty of the State) come into play. I do not see the automatic connection between the Rule of Law and Democracy – there is no reason courts cannot be fair without democracy (Solomon comes to mind, as does Ooka Echizen).
China is pretty good at keeping its minority cultures preserved, though they can tend towards museumification. True, Tibet is perhaps a bit different, but then many of them are agitating not just for their culture but for independence. Incidentally, I read recently a nice comment about the Dalai Lama – how ironic it was that citizens of democracies were pressuring a country ruled by an unelected leader to allow another unelected leader to rule.
I think the Aussie thing is about Aussie soccer weakness – if it’s not rugby or Aussie Rules it’s not a man’s sport down there.
Nationalism in any state is a bit creepy frankly. Authoritarian rule just makes it more coherent….
bender said
Solomon? Too antiquated for anyone to scrutinize what happened back then. Ooka Echizen is a folk hero, and it seems that many of his attributes are fiction. Close to Mito Komon- Mitsukuni didn’t travel around Japan to enforce justice. Of course not. Seriously, try to think of some country right now that’s undemocratic but the courts are just. I’m not kidding.
You sound like this Dutch law professor who I met that brushed off as nonsense complaints that the EU lack democracy- famous codes were enacted by authoritarian regimes (example: the German BGB), said he. Couldn’t actually agree with his logic. Interesting, but not tasteful. I’m sure most Europeans disagree.
Why can’t Tibet be independent? How different is Tibet, for say, Korea? Heck, Tibet was probably more independent than Korea. Qing China was probably the first Chinese dynasty to be able to subjugate the Tibetans (or maybe the second time if one counts the Mongol Yuan dynasty as “Chinese”). It was overrun by the so-called “liberation army” because America didn’t come to the rescue like in Korea, for all I know. If the Chinese want to make fuss against Japan about Manchukuo, then let Tibet be independent.
Better check the FIFA ranking- China is in no position to call the Aussies weak.
Overthinker said
Whether or not there are or are not modern countries with fair courts and no democracy does not mean that democracy is needed for fair courts. At best you can say that concepts of “fairness” for citizens are needed for both, but that does not necessarily mean that no courts were fair before democracy, or that all democratic courts are fair.
Tibet is not independent because it is ruled by China. Korea is independent because it is not ruled by China. And it’s that little “ruled by China” thing that is the key difference. And it can’t be independent as China isn’t prepared to let it be independent. Don’t look for “moral” reasons here.
As regards Manchukuo, the Chinese make a fuss over Japan being there on some fairly slim grounds, as far I am concerned. China never ruled Manchuria – the Manchurians (the Qing) ruled China. Thus when the Qing no longer ruled China and it was taken over by the republicans, the only claim the republic of China had to Manchuria was through conquest – and in fact it was a policy of the republic to try and claim Manchuria as Chinese through settling it, now that the restrictions on Han migration to the Manchu homeland no longer applied. Russia had definite interests in grabbing Manchuria as well, and of course Japan was the one that got it. There was no proper central Chinese control over the place – the main power was the warlord Chang Tso-lin (until he met the business end of a Kwangtung Army bomb), and in fact the Chinese republic was always a bit incoherent once the warlords gained power.
ROK Drop Weekly Linklets - 28OCT07 at ROK Drop said
[...] for Seoul?- How long will it be before some Korean nationalist finds out about this?- Here is a good posting on how academia knows nothing about sports in NE [...]
Aceface said
Reminds me of a TIME ASIA magazine’s front cover in August of 1998.A picture of Japanese soccer fan with rising sun painted all over his face and it was entitled “Rising Japanese nationalism”.I thought “Rising soccer boom in Japan”would rather fits the picture of the guy.
It is shocking to see so many double standard on nationalism and democracy when comparing Japan and China,and using WW2 for justification on everything.I believe the good professor(and his ten other friends)failed(or chose to ignore) this incident with Japanese women soccer team played in China.
hochi.yomiuri.co.jp/topics/news/20070922-OHT1T00091.
Aki said
Aceface’s link does not work on my computer. Perhaps the following URL is the correct one.
http://hochi.yomiuri.co.jp/topics/news/20070922-OHT1T00091.htm
I wonder why this kind of incident is never reported in English-language media.
ampontan said
Aki: It’s going to be the subject of an Ampontan post in the next day or two!
Overthinker said
Look forward to it. Some of the Chinese media showed some rationality, but it seems that there’s not much one can do in the face of inculcated hatred….
bender said
I hear Croatians fans were penalized for their nationalistic/racist slurs. As for China and Korea, are their slurs concentrated against Japan?
BTW, I think it’s completely free to disagree with other’s comments, but I don’t think it’s beneficial or polite to do it just because of. “Kotoba asobi” might be fun and a good time-killer, but don’t over do it.
Overthinker said
““Kotoba asobi” might be fun and a good time-killer, but don’t over do it.”
Who’s been doing that? I haven’t noticed any mean-spirited comments on this board.
Don said
To be honest, there’s one thing even worse than journalists and academics, and that’s anonymous bloggers. Nothing personal, but the way you attack all these people seems dishonest and poorly backed up. Critique might be in order but don’t be so rude.
Overthinker said
“All text copyright 2007 by William Sakovich”
That doesn’t sound like a pen name to me….
ampontan said
Don: You should have read the sidebar at the right before talking about “anonymous bloggers”. The part where it has my real name.
Then try reading About. I’ll match my time and experience in NE Asia against Bell’s any day.
Then, if you like, feel free to tell me what isn’t “backed up”.