<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Don&#8217;t undervalue Japanese historical awareness</title>
	<atom:link href="http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/</link>
	<description>Japan from the inside out</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 22:32:13 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: ROK Drop Weekly Linklets - 21OCT07 at ROK Drop</title>
		<link>http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10280</link>
		<dc:creator>ROK Drop Weekly Linklets - 21OCT07 at ROK Drop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 23:22:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10280</guid>
		<description>[...] This is funny, urban camouflage in Japan.  -  Just another example that cooperation between Japan and Korea is much greater than it appears.-  Unbelievable, the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This is funny, urban camouflage in Japan.  -  Just another example that cooperation between Japan and Korea is much greater than it appears.-  Unbelievable, the [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10171</link>
		<dc:creator>bender</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Oct 2007 02:50:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10171</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;we all know who the real bastard is, don’t we, guys?&lt;/em&gt;

It must be the Koreans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>we all know who the real bastard is, don’t we, guys?</em></p>
<p>It must be the Koreans.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ponta</title>
		<link>http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10154</link>
		<dc:creator>ponta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 05:07:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10154</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;‘Japanese people shouldn’t feel remorse about this..’&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Neither should Japanese people be agitated by Korean ultra-nationalists/ethnocentrist.

&lt;blockquote&gt;we all know who the real bastard is, don’t we, guys?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I think we do, pawikirogi</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>‘Japanese people shouldn’t feel remorse about this..’</p></blockquote>
<p>Neither should Japanese people be agitated by Korean ultra-nationalists/ethnocentrist.</p>
<blockquote><p>we all know who the real bastard is, don’t we, guys?</p></blockquote>
<p>I think we do, pawikirogi</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: pawikirogi</title>
		<link>http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10153</link>
		<dc:creator>pawikirogi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Oct 2007 02:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10153</guid>
		<description>&#039;japanese people shouldn&#039;t feel remorse about this..&#039;

do your people ever feel remorse for anything they&#039;ve done to others?

all the japanese ever meant to koreans was trouble. that&#039;s it. that&#039;s why it&#039;s so funny to see so many ignorant westerners thinking korea is some bastard child of china and japan. we all know who the real bastard is, don&#039;t we, guys?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;japanese people shouldn&#8217;t feel remorse about this..&#8217;</p>
<p>do your people ever feel remorse for anything they&#8217;ve done to others?</p>
<p>all the japanese ever meant to koreans was trouble. that&#8217;s it. that&#8217;s why it&#8217;s so funny to see so many ignorant westerners thinking korea is some bastard child of china and japan. we all know who the real bastard is, don&#8217;t we, guys?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Overthinker</title>
		<link>http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10145</link>
		<dc:creator>Overthinker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:54:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10145</guid>
		<description>Yes, I know there was some splitting of daimyo at Sekigahara, especially people like Kobayakawa, but the link between those switches and the involvement in the Korean Expeditions has not yet been made clear. It might be clear, but I&#039;d need to look at an analysis of who switched sides, why, and their roles in the Korean Expeditions. And what importance should be placed on Ieyasu&#039;s various negotiations, the fact that Hideyoshi was dead with only a young son a heir, and even the recent death of perhaps his most powerful general, Maeda Toshiie? There are all sorts of factors to consider, which is why if there is a link I would like it made clearer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I know there was some splitting of daimyo at Sekigahara, especially people like Kobayakawa, but the link between those switches and the involvement in the Korean Expeditions has not yet been made clear. It might be clear, but I&#8217;d need to look at an analysis of who switched sides, why, and their roles in the Korean Expeditions. And what importance should be placed on Ieyasu&#8217;s various negotiations, the fact that Hideyoshi was dead with only a young son a heir, and even the recent death of perhaps his most powerful general, Maeda Toshiie? There are all sorts of factors to consider, which is why if there is a link I would like it made clearer.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10144</link>
		<dc:creator>bender</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:15:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10144</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;I don’t think the Korean thing really last long enough to have a long-term effect on han strength. Especially once Satsuma cornered the Ryukyu sugar market.&lt;/em&gt;

There was probably not that much loss incurred on part of the Japanese forces in the first place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>I don’t think the Korean thing really last long enough to have a long-term effect on han strength. Especially once Satsuma cornered the Ryukyu sugar market.</em></p>
<p>There was probably not that much loss incurred on part of the Japanese forces in the first place.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10143</link>
		<dc:creator>bender</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10143</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;I don’t follow this. Ieyasu seemed pretty keen on attaining supreme power once Hideyoshi was gone, after all. There may have been some internal weakening of alliances, but it was still pretty robust by Sekigahara, and Ieyasu had some hard fighting to do in the Osaka Summer and Winter Campaigns to finally destroy them. Which sources discuss this issue?&lt;/em&gt;

I&#039;m surprised that you don&#039;t follow. It&#039;s more like public knowledge.  Just look at what happened in Sekigahara! 

Ieyasu managed to split the Toyotomi daimyos in Seigahara- daimyos like Fukushima Masanori and Kato Kiyomasa sided Ieyasu instead of Ishida Mitsunari.  Don&#039;t you think that&#039;s kind of awkward?  If the Toyotomi daimyos were united, Ieyasu would have certainly lost- but there was animosity among the Toyotomi daimyos against Ishida Mitsunari that has its origins in the Korean campaign.  Daimyos like Fukushima Masanori failed to see the whole picture- they had their absolute allegiance with the Toyotomi clan, but they couldn&#039;t see that Ieyasu was the one to be dealt with, not Ishida.  And you know what happened to these Toyotomi daimyos in the end... any &lt;em&gt;jidai-shosetsu&lt;/em&gt; will discuss this....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>I don’t follow this. Ieyasu seemed pretty keen on attaining supreme power once Hideyoshi was gone, after all. There may have been some internal weakening of alliances, but it was still pretty robust by Sekigahara, and Ieyasu had some hard fighting to do in the Osaka Summer and Winter Campaigns to finally destroy them. Which sources discuss this issue?</em></p>
<p>I&#8217;m surprised that you don&#8217;t follow. It&#8217;s more like public knowledge.  Just look at what happened in Sekigahara! </p>
<p>Ieyasu managed to split the Toyotomi daimyos in Seigahara- daimyos like Fukushima Masanori and Kato Kiyomasa sided Ieyasu instead of Ishida Mitsunari.  Don&#8217;t you think that&#8217;s kind of awkward?  If the Toyotomi daimyos were united, Ieyasu would have certainly lost- but there was animosity among the Toyotomi daimyos against Ishida Mitsunari that has its origins in the Korean campaign.  Daimyos like Fukushima Masanori failed to see the whole picture- they had their absolute allegiance with the Toyotomi clan, but they couldn&#8217;t see that Ieyasu was the one to be dealt with, not Ishida.  And you know what happened to these Toyotomi daimyos in the end&#8230; any <em>jidai-shosetsu</em> will discuss this&#8230;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Overthinker</title>
		<link>http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10140</link>
		<dc:creator>Overthinker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 03:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10140</guid>
		<description>&quot;It was the bickering among the Toyotomi generals during the Korean campaign that led to the demise of the Toyotomi regime&quot;

I don&#039;t follow this. Ieyasu seemed pretty keen on attaining supreme power once Hideyoshi was gone, after all. There may have been some internal weakening of alliances, but it was still pretty robust by Sekigahara, and Ieyasu had some hard fighting to do in the Osaka Summer and Winter Campaigns to finally destroy them. Which sources discuss this issue? 

Several key daimyo were not entirely in favour: Ieyasu, Toshiie, Kenshin etc managed to remain in Japan rather than commit to going to Korea, and like much of Hideyoshi&#039;s ambitions, the continental dream faded fast, with Ieyasu being far more concerned with internal security. 

The Shimazu opposed Ieyasu, as did the Mori, and both lost land after Sekigahara, and their role in Meiji is generally credited to their anti-Tokugawa stance rather than their power per se (though reduced, both were still pretty impressive). I don&#039;t think the Korean thing really last long enough to have a long-term effect on han strength. Especially once Satsuma cornered the Ryukyu sugar market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It was the bickering among the Toyotomi generals during the Korean campaign that led to the demise of the Toyotomi regime&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t follow this. Ieyasu seemed pretty keen on attaining supreme power once Hideyoshi was gone, after all. There may have been some internal weakening of alliances, but it was still pretty robust by Sekigahara, and Ieyasu had some hard fighting to do in the Osaka Summer and Winter Campaigns to finally destroy them. Which sources discuss this issue? </p>
<p>Several key daimyo were not entirely in favour: Ieyasu, Toshiie, Kenshin etc managed to remain in Japan rather than commit to going to Korea, and like much of Hideyoshi&#8217;s ambitions, the continental dream faded fast, with Ieyasu being far more concerned with internal security. </p>
<p>The Shimazu opposed Ieyasu, as did the Mori, and both lost land after Sekigahara, and their role in Meiji is generally credited to their anti-Tokugawa stance rather than their power per se (though reduced, both were still pretty impressive). I don&#8217;t think the Korean thing really last long enough to have a long-term effect on han strength. Especially once Satsuma cornered the Ryukyu sugar market.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10139</link>
		<dc:creator>bender</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 02:48:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10139</guid>
		<description>Seems like Korea was underestimating Japan- and they still are underevaluating Japan&#039;s might at the time.  My understanding is that the Japanese generals were unenthusiastic, and when Hideyoshi died, they just left Korea.  The joint Ming-Chosun forces tried to destroy the retreating Japanese, but they lost badly, resulting in the death of the Korean hero Yi-sunshin (I heard this last sea battle is way exaggerated in Korea).  And the Japanese loss was quite insignificant- I&#039;m not aware of any report that states that the &lt;em&gt;daimyos&lt;/em&gt; were weakened by the campaign.  The &lt;em&gt;han&lt;/em&gt; of one of the greatest Japanese generals of the campaign became the cradle of the Meji Revolotion- Satsuma.  It was the bickering among the Toyotomi generals during the Korean campaign that led to the demise of the Toyotomi regime, not that Toyotomi lost its grace and wealth.  It stlll was great, and Ieyasu was desparate to destroy it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems like Korea was underestimating Japan- and they still are underevaluating Japan&#8217;s might at the time.  My understanding is that the Japanese generals were unenthusiastic, and when Hideyoshi died, they just left Korea.  The joint Ming-Chosun forces tried to destroy the retreating Japanese, but they lost badly, resulting in the death of the Korean hero Yi-sunshin (I heard this last sea battle is way exaggerated in Korea).  And the Japanese loss was quite insignificant- I&#8217;m not aware of any report that states that the <em>daimyos</em> were weakened by the campaign.  The <em>han</em> of one of the greatest Japanese generals of the campaign became the cradle of the Meji Revolotion- Satsuma.  It was the bickering among the Toyotomi generals during the Korean campaign that led to the demise of the Toyotomi regime, not that Toyotomi lost its grace and wealth.  It stlll was great, and Ieyasu was desparate to destroy it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Overthinker</title>
		<link>http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10137</link>
		<dc:creator>Overthinker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Oct 2007 02:23:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/dont-undervalue-japanese-historical-awareness/#comment-10137</guid>
		<description>Ieyasu also had to do some carful diplomatic manouevering to get back in China&#039;s good books a few years later. 

Hideyoshi was talking of leaving Japan to his brother Hidenaga and invading China and Korea as early as 1586, after declairing grandly he would take &#039;karakuni&#039; (China) and lands of the Southern Barbarians. He even asked the Jesuits for two fully-armed man-o&#039;-war.

After conquering Kyushu, Hideyoshi then demanded that Korea pay tribute (1587). A vassal of the Tsuhima Soo was sent to Korea to negotiate, but not surprisingly, Korea did not respond. After a few negotiations, Hideyoshi sent over some Wako pirates as prisoners, plus 160-odd Koreans they had captured, and in return the Koreans agreed to send an emissary. Hideyoshi&#039;s idea of getting Korea to agree peacefully if possible were an extension of his Japan-based conquers. Hideyoshi also attempted to get tribute from Goa and Luzon, and Taiwan. 

Regarding the Imperial Letter, by the time it was written Hideyoshi had lost command of the seas to the Korean turtle ships, and was under pressure not to cross over anyway, so this may have been concocted as a way to save face. Here&#039;s the letter, taken from p467 of the hardback Nihon no Rekishi 12 (Chuo Koron&#039;s 1966 classic series):

高麗国への下向、嶮路波濤をしのかれむ事無勿体候、発足遠慮可然候、勝を千里に決して、此度の事諸卒をつかはし候んも、可事足哉、且朝家のため且天下のため、かえすがえすも、おもひとまり給候はば、別而悦おほしめし候へく候、猶勅使にて可申候
太閤とのへ

My very VERY rough translation:
&quot;To the Taiko,
The journey to the country of Korea is dangerous and the seas are rough, so  departure should be refrained from, victory is decided by a thousand leagues (?), so this time, looking at all the facts, it does not begin to suffice (?), and for the court and for the realm, we repeat, that if we wish your fixation (?), separately, your thoughts should be joyful, we hereby declare through our messenger.&quot;

His mother was also ill, so he postponed departure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ieyasu also had to do some carful diplomatic manouevering to get back in China&#8217;s good books a few years later. </p>
<p>Hideyoshi was talking of leaving Japan to his brother Hidenaga and invading China and Korea as early as 1586, after declairing grandly he would take &#8216;karakuni&#8217; (China) and lands of the Southern Barbarians. He even asked the Jesuits for two fully-armed man-o&#8217;-war.</p>
<p>After conquering Kyushu, Hideyoshi then demanded that Korea pay tribute (1587). A vassal of the Tsuhima Soo was sent to Korea to negotiate, but not surprisingly, Korea did not respond. After a few negotiations, Hideyoshi sent over some Wako pirates as prisoners, plus 160-odd Koreans they had captured, and in return the Koreans agreed to send an emissary. Hideyoshi&#8217;s idea of getting Korea to agree peacefully if possible were an extension of his Japan-based conquers. Hideyoshi also attempted to get tribute from Goa and Luzon, and Taiwan. </p>
<p>Regarding the Imperial Letter, by the time it was written Hideyoshi had lost command of the seas to the Korean turtle ships, and was under pressure not to cross over anyway, so this may have been concocted as a way to save face. Here&#8217;s the letter, taken from p467 of the hardback Nihon no Rekishi 12 (Chuo Koron&#8217;s 1966 classic series):</p>
<p>高麗国への下向、嶮路波濤をしのかれむ事無勿体候、発足遠慮可然候、勝を千里に決して、此度の事諸卒をつかはし候んも、可事足哉、且朝家のため且天下のため、かえすがえすも、おもひとまり給候はば、別而悦おほしめし候へく候、猶勅使にて可申候<br />
太閤とのへ</p>
<p>My very VERY rough translation:<br />
&#8220;To the Taiko,<br />
The journey to the country of Korea is dangerous and the seas are rough, so  departure should be refrained from, victory is decided by a thousand leagues (?), so this time, looking at all the facts, it does not begin to suffice (?), and for the court and for the realm, we repeat, that if we wish your fixation (?), separately, your thoughts should be joyful, we hereby declare through our messenger.&#8221;</p>
<p>His mother was also ill, so he postponed departure.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
