AMPONTAN

Japan from the inside out

Does the Emperor wear Korean genes?

Posted by ampontan on Wednesday, September 19, 2007

A DISPUTE OVER THE LOCATION of the burial mound of the Emperor Keitai, thought to have ruled from 507 to 531, serves as a backdrop to a much more interesting question: were the first members of Japan’s imperial family Korean and not Japanese?

nintokutomb.jpg

Takatsuki in Osaka Prefecture claims it has found artifacts at a local site suggesting that Keitai is buried there, though it has been assumed the emperor was buried nearby in the city of Ibaraki. It is no easy matter to confirm the identity of a person interred in a mound of dirt 1,500 years ago, of course, but other factors add to the difficulty. One is that the practice of placing epitaphs in the mound identifying the person buried did not begin until the 8th century, and then was conducted only intermittently. Therefore, it is just about impossible to identify the occupants of burial mounds older than that.

Further, it is by no means certain that the Emperor Keitai actually existed. According to The Modern Reader’s Japanese-English Character Dictionary by Andrew Nelson (the standard Kanji-English dictionary for many years):

“Much of the early chronology before the introduction of writing is legendary rather than historical. Japanese textbooks now usually begin such a list with Emperor Kimmei (reigned 539-571). But legends often play an equal role with history in a nation’s literature, and it has been thought well to give the full traditional list.”

The Emperor Kimmei was number 29 according to this list, with Emperor Keitai 26th. The latter’s reign is given as (507)-531, and interestingly, numbers 27, 28, and Emperor Kimmei are considered the sons of Keitai.

Yet another factor is that the Imperial Household Agency, which is responsible for the management of the burial sites and perhaps the most conservative of any government agency in Japan, refuses to allow excavation of the sites except in special circumstances. They cite privacy concerns as one reason for their refusal, saying that the “peace and calm” of the late emperor must be maintained. They claim that excavations of the burial sites are “tantamount to destruction” of the tombs.

Some historians assert that the real reason for the refusal is that a full-scale, open excavation would show that the earliest Japanese emperors were Korean–either horse-riding invaders who conquered the native population early in the fourth century, or priest-kings. Foreigners in Japan like to circulate a rumor that the excavation of one important imperial tomb was trumpeted in the press some years ago, only to be hushed up when too many Korean artifacts were discovered.

The substantial contact between the Korean Peninsula and Japan in those days is not in question. The current Emperor Akihito admitted some Korean heritage during a press conference in 2001. He said he felt a close “kinship” with Korea because the Shoku Nihongi (Chronicles of Japan) records that the mother of Emperor Kammu (#50, 781-806) was from the line of King Muryong of Baekche. This article appearing in the Guardian at the time provides details about the press conference, as well as the lack of general coverage in the Japanese press, though the Guardian’s headlines and their unwarranted tone (“the silent fury of many Japanese nationalists”) exaggerate both the relationship and the story. (Just what is it with the childish–and churlish–attitude of left-of-center newspapers toward Japan, anyway?)

For its part, however, the Guardian fails to report that the reason the emperors are related to King Muryong is that Muryong is thought by many to have been born in Japan in June 461—specifically Kakara Island, part of Chinzei-cho in Saga Prefecture. The people on the island have been holding festivals for the past few years honoring his birth as a way to promote exchange between Japan and South Korea. The Baekche royalty wound up in Kyushu—some say Miyazaki Prefecture—because they had to flee the Korean Peninsula after winding up on the short end of battles with the other two major kingdoms in the region.

An article in the Japan Times provides an in-depth look at the issue, but unfortunately the newspaper has not put it on line. (Here is a companion piece on the same page.) It’s a shame, because they quote two of the few foreign archaeologists expert in this field casting doubts on the theory of Korean origin for the imperial line. Gina Barnes of the University of Durham in Great Britain admits the possibility while citing the lack of evidence:

“There is no direct historical evidence of a (Japanese) emperor born on the Korean Peninsula. There is considerable evidence of contact with peninsular kings and elites. But given other monarchical systems in which ‘stranger kings’ may be incorporated, such as the British Hanover line, which has produced the current queen, it’s not an impossible thought that the Yamato rulership incorporated foreign allies.”

Walter Edwards of Tenri University in Nara Prefecture downplays the Korean connection:

“Would we expect to find that the occupants of the earliest large tombs, the third-century figures who originally carved out the Yamato polity, to have been Korean aristocrats who came over and wrested power from indigenous leaders, helping raise a backward nation up to the level of early statehood? That is what is all too often implied by whisperings of ‘Korean bones’. That view I reject. The emergence of the ancient Yamato polity was an indigenous phenomenon.”

The debate about the Korean origin of the Japanese state extends to the field of linguistics. Though linguists place Japanese and Korean in separate language groups, there are clear parallels in the grammar of both languages. Both languages also extensively borrowed vocabulary from China. And there are some intriguing examples in Japanese of words or phrases that may have originated in Korea. (For a previous post on this subject, try this.)

John Douglas has a very good overview of the issue in this article on the website of the Association for Asian Research. Written in 2004, it is excellent for the most part, though there are a few flaws. He discusses the Emperors Sujin (#10) and Ojin (#15) as if they were real people, without bringing up the possibility that they might be legendary figures. Douglas also quotes Gina Barnes without mentioning her assertion quoted above that there is no direct evidence for a Korean-born emperor. Most regrettably, he can’t resist a snide and hopelessly outdated cliche about Japanese attitudes all too common among some scholars and observers:

“Even now, the slightest suggestion that Japan’s revered and unbroken dynasty of emperors might have Korean ancestors comes as an unspeakable heresy.”

Allow me to finish the sentence for him:”…to a handful of diehards.” One wonders how much contact some of these people have had with real flesh-and-blood Japanese alive today.

One thing is certain—archaeologists will not be able to make a determination one way or another until the Imperial Household Agency allows the tombs to be excavated and the findings publicized, but that is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

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47 Responses to “Does the Emperor wear Korean genes?”

  1. Richardson said

    Considering the history and how much more advanced Korea was at the time, I wouldn’t be surprised if a Korean did found the Japanese line. But since the historical texts of the time – the Samguk Sagi and the Nihon Shoki – aren’t the most reliable, we’ll never know from them. Excavations are key.

    Either way, statements like, “The emergence of the ancient Yamato polity was an indigenous phenomenon,” probably aren’t supportable considering the current overall lack of verifiable data.

  2. Aceface said

    “as well as the lack of general coverage in the Japanese press”
    This is just not the case,almost every paper in Japan covered Emperor’s word,just we all thought this is only protocol because Kammu connection is widely known fact(it’s in the guide book of Kyoto.)I know that Koreans went crazy about this,but….It’s just not a big news.

    I am wondering how could these gaijin folks and leftwing Japanese and entire Korean nationhood totally forget about 日鮮同祖論,Japanese-Korean mutual ancestry theory,that was used to justify the annexation,so easily.Prewar educated people actually believe the imperial line came from Korea(or today’s Manchuria).

    And digging up the Kofun is a dream project of every aechaeologist in Japan,but Japan happense to be already a NO.1 nation in digging up archaeological site,due to the fact that archaeological research is obligated as pre-construction procedure.So everyone is much more concerned about protecting the site and the artifacts which are already lacking budgets,instaed of digging hundreds of completely new gigantic sites.

    I also don’t understand why everyone in overseas trying to exploit the post-war trend of Japan’s multiculturalism in archaeology(and other histrorical narratives)for the benefit of Korean ethno-centricism(I would even want call that an “ultra”,sometimes).

    There are few Japanese Kofun style mounds were found in Southern Jeolla in the past two decades,but so far not much are done there,primary because Koreans are afraid of finding Japanese related artifacts(which are rational given the fact that Japan had accepted so many political exiles from the peninsular and even the nobles had intermarried with some of them.Vice versa could happen).

  3. Overthinker said

    The kofun-Korea issue is an old and well-known one, but a more pertinent issue would be that in the end it doesn’t really mean much even if the Emperor did have a continental ancestor – it was long before the nation of Korea existed, and so is more akin to human evolution: humans did not evolve from apes, humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor (please note I am NOT suggesting that Koreans are apes; I am merely using this as an example of how common descent from an ancestor that may have tended more to one side than the other of its contemporary manifestation does not mean that that the current closer side to the original ancestor does not give it the right to claim that the other lot are descended from it. Clear as mud? Basically I am saying that having ancestors in the Korean peninsula does not necessarily mean they were Korean in the modern sense, and thus this issue should be divorced more from modern nationalism issues – but I know it won’t be….)

    Some kofun have been excavated – those the IHA doesn’t consider Imperial – and very strong connections in art and design with that of the Korean peninsula at the time have been found: there is no reason to assume that ‘Imperial’ (and in many cases the designation as ‘Imperial’ is based on tradition rather than fact) tombs are any different. Japan once controlled part of Korea, much the same way as England once controlled part of France: national borders were flexible and porous.

    Incidentally, I have heard a theory that Nara, the word, derives from the old Korean word for ‘state’, and reflects the very high incidence of Koreans coming over to help design and build the Taika state and its first permanent capital.

  4. Peter Pan said

    If Amaterasu is said to have created the Japanese islands for the Japanese after a great battle, then wouldn’t that have to mean the Japanese people of today came from somewhere else — after loosing a great battle? And isn’t it also mythologically said that there was a great battle that ensued to get the natives off their land, thus these people were invaders as well?

    For me it seems pretty obvious that the Japanese people came from Korea in one way or the other, and the Korean people came from the Chinese, and the Chinese from the Middle-Eastern etc etc etc out of Africa.

    What gets me is the claims of superiority for one party or the other involved in the process, that one group feeding into the other means they are superior. In this case the claims are that the Koreans were superior then, and then they are superior now? So that means the Chinese are superior to both? And then the Middle-Easterners get involved. In Japan there are theories (be they as hair-brained as they are) that the Japanese people are really Jewish; can you imagine how many times someone who proposed that in China or Korea would get killed on the street?

    My point being, in terms of understanding ancient history, I’d like to see the excavation to happen. But since the Koreans seem not be interested in understanding history, but instead finding more ‘evidence’ for their claims of racial superiority, I see no rush to excavate until the general Korean population (and their textbooks that teach that crap) grow up and join the 20th century when such thoughts where deemed inappropriate with the end of WW2.

    And besides, even if one society was more superior thus able to conquer another, we’re talking ancient times here. What does ‘superior’ mean? You found that two rocks are better than one for bashing someone’s head in in your quest to conquer another? And which one’s the ‘barbarian’? From my perspective, it’s just the reoccurring theme of Korea as a nation of people not being mature enough to eat at the grown-up table. The rest of us can’t know the truth that is held in the tombs because the Koreans aren’t mature enough to handle it.

  5. ampontan said

    I enjoyed reading all these excellent comments. Aceface, you’ve been on a roll these past couple of days!

    Overthinker: “Nara” in modern Korean is equivalent to the Japanese “kuni”. They say “uri nara” when a Japanese would say “waga kuni”. I’ve also read the counterargument that pronunciations have changed and it wouldn’t have been pronounced “nara” 1,600 years ago. Makes sense if you’ve ever read the original Canterbury Tales in English. You might hit that link on the previous article about linguistic similarities. There are some excellent comments there, too.

  6. bender said

    Take a look at this:

    http://www.museum.kyushu-u.ac.jp/WAJIN/wajin.html

    I like the more scientific approach of the above site.

    BTW, the migrations in the Yayoi period happened way before there was any state in Korea. It’s kind of crude to say that “Koreans” are the ancestor of Japanese- it’s more accurate to say that some share the same origins. I say “some” because you shouldn’t forget that the Jomon-Ainu blood that is also strong among many Japanese and non-existent among Koreans.

    The Korean language is quite different from Japanese- so the split, if ever, must have happened long, long ago, much earlier than the split among ancient Indo-European languages some 4,000-5,000 years ago. I even wonder if the “Koreans” who migrated in the Yayoi period are culturally related to modern Koreans.

  7. jion999 said

    Oh, it is a very rare case that I agree with the idea of Aceface.
    It is a monomaniacal dream of Koreans that Koreans were superior than Japanese in ancient times and they prefer to insist that Japanese emperors were Koreans.

    It is a superior inferior complex of Koreans to cover up the humiliation of its colonization by Japanese

    They are not matured to study about archeology without the idea of primitive nationalism.

  8. Overthinker said

    I should have remembered about that recent post about language – I even commented on it, re ‘kudaranai’ and ‘nara’. I found this page:
    http://homepage1.nifty.com/forty-sixer/timei.htm
    which discusses the issue and suggests that instead it could mean something like “flat”. 均す (narasu) does mean to “make flat” in Japanese, which is suggestive. The page also discusses the idea that Fuji was Ainu (and dismisses it, saying it was Ainu for old woman, and the result of the mistranslation), and comments that the ‘h’ sound did not exist in old Japanese (which is one reason why it sea (海) is Hai in Chinese and Kai in Japanese.

    I have heard (and I mean that literally – you need to hear it to understand) that the Canterbury Tales sound much more understandable in a strong Northern accent, which is interesting but not that surprising, not seeing the changes that took place in England, esp with the famous Great Vowel Shift….

    Talking of linguistic coincidences, I was intrigued on a visit to Italy to learn that the word for wall, as in town wall, is apparently ‘mura’ (come to think of it, this is probably the same root we get ‘mural’ from – and the OED concurs, saying “ORIGIN from Latin murus ‘wall’”…). Reminds me a bit of the connection between 城 in Chinese and Japanese – one is city wall (and thence city) and the other took the more defensive aspects and became castle….

  9. jion999 said

    This is a very interesting manga drawn by a Korean about Japanese ancient history.
    (translated to Japanese)

    http://www.enjoykorea.jp/tbbs/read.php?board_id=phistory&page=2&nid=68341&st=writer_id&sw=jion

    That Koreans explains that “kudara nai” means “kudara ga nai”, “it is not so excel comparing with the goods of Kudara(one of the ancient Korean kingdom)”.

    It is a lie.

    The name of Japan’s old city “奈良”(nara)comes from Korean’s “Uri nara”?
    It is a similar lie of Koreans.

  10. camphortree said

    Many episodes of the Sun Goddess, the mythical origin of the Emperors involve the artifacts that are found in numerouos archaeological dig sites that belong to the Yayoi Period, not the Kofun Period.
    As you know the Yayoi Period (700BC~300 AD)is prior to the Kofun Period.
    magnificient show case village of the Yayoi Period was discovered and now presented at the archaeological dig site at Yoshinogari, Saga Prefecture.
    The DNA of the rice and silk excavated in the deepest layer of the soil unexpectedly all matched the DNA of the ones found in the archaeological sites that were dug out along the Yangtze River in southern China. The rice was all tropical Japonica type. None of the DNA matched the ones found in northern China or the Korean Peninsula. The DNA proved that the rice and silk were brought directly to the archipelago of Japan by the people from southern China 江南、the Long River Civilization.
    However, some of the DNA of rice and silk found in the surface layer showed common patterns with the ones found in northern China and the Korean Peninsula.
    That is powerful testament that the Yoshinogari, a member state of the archipelago’s first nation、Yamatai-koku(
    邪馬台国) was founded by southern Chinese people.
    In his master piece 陳寿, an ancient Chinese historian documented that the nation, Yamatai-koku 邪馬台国 was ruled by a woman named Himiko. According to his record 魏志倭人伝, Yamatai-koku consisted of Wa-people(倭人).
    Who are the Wa-people(倭人)? Yoshinogari proved that they came directly from southern China somewhere along the Long River. A piece of pottery from the Karako-Kagi archaeological site(Yayoi Period) in Osaka, Japan shows boat people rowing dragon boats. The DNA of rice in the Karako-Kagi site matched only that from the Long River, southern China.
    The DNA from later years(still Yayoi Period) in Yoshinogari show that southern Chinese Wa-People interacted with people from the Korean Peninsula.
    Thus, the Japanese people were born.
    Here is the Yoshinogari address.

    http://www.asukanet.gr.jp/tataki/yayoizin.html

  11. jion999 said

    The same Korean manga shows that Korea defeated US in 19 century like this.

    http://www.enjoykorea.jp/tbbs/read.php?board_id=phistory&page=3&nid=64280&st=writer_id&sw=jion

    Three Americans are hanged and shout “Oh, no. Help me.”

    Americans also could understand the credibility of the history Koreans insist.

  12. ampontan said

    Camphortree: Thanks for all that! The official English site for Yoshinogari is on the right sidebar.

    I live about a 15 or 20 minute drive away. When the site was first excavated, middle-aged men in the neighborhood said, oh yeah, we used to play there all the time when we were kids, there were some cool old swords we used to throw around until they broke!

    15 or 20 minutes in a different direction is Morodomi, my wife’s home town, which is the place where the Chinese explorer is supposed to have landed (Jofuku in Japanese).

    In the US, when I was studying Japanese, I knew a Chinese engineer. He thought it was good that I was interested in Japan and encouraged my kanji studies, but he also used to joke around with me by saying that in China, the old story is that Japan was founded by a renegade Chinese who was given money by the emperor to explore the region, kept it, and never came back.

    He must mean Jofuku!

  13. Durf said

    The tone of these “Oh no those Koreans didn’t!” posts is telling, whatever the historical facts may be. Go back to 2ch.

    When Showa first visited Korea the Japanese papers reported on the Korean public welcome, which included lots of mentions of his long-awaited 里帰り to the ancestral home. Good times.

  14. ampontan said

    Durf: Didn’t understand that last sentence. Were the mentions of the satogaeri made by Koreans, or by the papers, or by the papers reporting on the Koreans. What year was that, BTW?

  15. Durf said

    You know what? I have no idea where that came from. No emperor has visited Korea.

    I do remember talking about the 里帰り concept with Japanese friends in the early 1990s, but this may have been in relation to a potential or proposed visit of some kind. In any case the Korean take on it was definitely “sure c’mon back home for a visit now, y’hear,” and the Japanese people telling me this were quite tickled by it all.

  16. bender said

    Here’s another site:

    http://www.museum.kyushu-u.ac.jp/WAJIN/wajin.html

    I think the above takes quite a scientific approach- forget the legends from Korea or China- they just want to claim origins of a succesful Asian nation so they can look better.

  17. Aceface said

    There had been some discussion on the related issue on other blog in January.
    http://www.pliink.com/mt/marxy/archives/2007/01/koguryo-japanese.html

  18. tomojiro said

    “BTW, the migrations in the Yayoi period happened way before there was any state in Korea. It’s kind of crude to say that “Koreans” are the ancestor of Japanese- it’s more accurate to say that some share the same origins. I say “some” because you shouldn’t forget that the Jomon-Ainu blood that is also strong among many Japanese and non-existent among Koreans.”

    Bender, I think you are quite right. And now, the reevaluations of carbon 14 has indicated the possibility that maybe Yayoi period began 500 years earlier than it was up until now recognized (BC 800).
    http://www.rekihaku.ac.jp/kenkyuu/news/index.htm

    I really think historical and archaeological research would be more exiting when all East Asians (especially Korean and Chinese) could just overcome their nationalism.

    There is proof of fascinating cultural interaction in East Asian histories.

    Who would have imagined the possibility that various Shinto Misogi methods are influenced by Taoistic practices which are now known today as qigong, or that the Chinese began to import Japanese swords already in the 10th century, and later in the 16th and 17th century even Japanese sword arts, some of them via the Portuguese?

  19. ampontan said

    “Who would have imagined the possibility that various Shinto Misogi methods are influenced by Taoistic practices which are now known today as qigong…”

    Tomojiro: I want to hear more about this!

  20. Overthinker said

    Now that the NY Times allows free access to articles before 1922, I had a browse, and found an interesting one that is semi-related to this topic: a guy called Griffis was claiming that Japan’s success as a modern nation was due to its sharing of Aryan (courtesy of the Ainu) blood….!

  21. pawikirogi said

    ‘koreans weren’t koreans back…’

    oh, here we go with this tired argument that koreans weren’t koreans back then and yet, the japanese were somehow japanese even though such a word didn’t even exist at the time. if koreans weren’t korean, then, the japanese weren’t japanese, you see my point? you lose credibility when you refer to korea as the korean peninsula while calling the japanese islands japan.

    ‘i wonder if the people of baekche are related to modern koreans.’

    well, who are they related to? the japanese? are you saying all the people of baekche disappeared from korea after it’s collapse? you mean not a single korean on the korean peninsula today is related to the people of baekche? now, that would be convienient, wouldn’t it?

    ‘japan controlled part of korea.’

    uh, no, they didn’t.

  22. Overthinker said

    “if koreans weren’t korean, then, the japanese weren’t japanese, you see my point?”
    Then call them wajin, or the Yamato, or whatever you wish. Japanese sources use Yamato Seiken (大和政権) or Yamato Ouken (大和王権) to describe the political power that was dominant at the time. There was also the Emishi to the north (as seen in Mononoke-hime) and the Hayato and Kumaso in southern Kyushu.

    Japan controlled Mimana in the southern Korean peninsula for a short period, though the exact location of the Mimana Japan Government (任那日本府, though that name is later, and 倭府 would have been used at the time) and the degree of control are debated.

  23. Aceface said

    And according to today’s Korean academism,Mimana Japan Government never existed,it is just a make up by the imperialist to justifies colonialisation of Korea and even mentioning it is an act of blasphemy.

    “oh, here we go with this tired argument that koreans weren’t koreans back then and yet, the japanese were somehow japanese even though such a word didn’t even exist at the time”.

    Hey,I thought it is always you guys starting the argument that “everything come from our side,nothing come from your side”argument.

    But Pawi has a point here.In East Asia there are tendency of identifying the past tribal groups as proto-national and enlarge the national chlonology.Either that is in Japan,Korea,China and Mongolia.Ministry of Education had decided couple of weeks ago to teach Jomon as part of the history class,of which was abolished from the beginning of this century.
    http://www1.odn.ne.jp/kamiya-ta/joumonjidai.html

    I was an archaeolohy student in the 90′s and back then everybody in my department were pretty skeptic about teaching Jomon and Yayoi, for we find something new that would change the definition of the era and cannot make them reflected on the content of the textbook.

  24. Overthinker said

    “In East Asia there are tendency of identifying the past tribal groups as proto-national and enlarge the national chronology.”

    This is quite interesting in that the debate about Where History Begins (and What Is History) is by no means restricted to East Asia. Some historians feel that true history only can start when people started keeping written records (histories), but that means that societies without writing, or groups that were not able to leave records, are left without history. Some profs even start their history courses with the evolution of Homo sapiens or even earlier. I can understand their goals, in that in order to consider what the ‘human condition’ really is, we need to recognise that civilisation and recorded history is but the thinnest veneer over tens of millennia of human existence. There’s a tool-making area in Africa that was used for that purpose for a good ten thousand years – that’s as long a period as the earliest signs of civilisation are from us. But then as Aceface says, there’s the danger of using it as proto-nationalism, like those that say Korea has 5,000 years of history, or even the 中国四千年 mantra. Going by that idea, France has 30,000 years of history at least, and Ethiopia hundreds of millennia. Which is ridiculous.

    However standard Japanese school texts generally start in the Upper Paleolithic, with discussion of the land bridge, the Naumann mammoths, and so on. This is fine by me – people were living here, creating art and tools and cultures, back then, and should not be ignored in favour of some arbitrary cutoff date. Let’s take a look at how one Shougakusei book (in Buneidou’s “Kuwashii Shakai” for 6 nensei) treats the issue: “2. The Ancestors of the Japanese. When did the ancestors of the Japanese arrive, and from where, is not fully known. It is thought that people came to live here during the Paleolithic and after, crossing over from the continent or island-hopping from the south.” The main problem with this is that it ignores the possibility that a lot of Japanese had their ancestors arrive more recently, say in the Taika to Nara periods as Toraijin, or even later. Not all Japanese have blood ties to the Yayoi or Jomon, and as more and more non-native born people naturalise, that number will only increase.

  25. bender said

    Overthinker:

    You’re exaggerating. I don’t recall any reports that the Koreans who migrated during the Kofun/Nara period was large enough to cause the gene pool to change. The language was little affected. I wouldn’t say “lots”.

    Also, people whose ancestors can be traced back to immigrants in that area are pretty much aware of this- they have last names like Hata, Koma and such. Even if not, they know by where their ancestral village is- there are well known Korean settlements even in the Kanto area (look up Komagawa in Saitama). Nobody is hiding anything.

    Textbooks are limited. I’m sure only those who go to Todai or Keio are the ones who even care to memorize what’s written inside them as kids, anyways. You don’t want textboks to be as thick as encyclopedias…

  26. pawikirogi said

    let’s provide some clarification on the korean and japanese languages:

    those who say that korean and japanese have little in common with one another are being dishonest. while it’s true that indigenous japanese and korean words have very little in common with one another, the grammar of these two languages are, for all practical purposes, identical. and please spare me the line that japanese has some different verb patterns therefore japanese and korean grammars aren’t the same; identical twins have different fingerprints and yet, we still say they’re identical.

    of course, to a lay person, the fact that korean and japanese have the same grammar might not mean much since they’ll assume that the grammars of ne asian languages must all be similar to one other. such an assumption would be incorrect; the only other language that exists in this world today that has the same grammar as korean is japanese. yes, mongol and manchu share similarities with both languages but their grammars are not the same.

    now, having written all of that, what about the fact that japanese words have no connection to korean ones? well, there is some thinking that korean immigrants gave japanese it’s grammar while it retained it’s own words. please look up ‘sprachbund’ for an understanding of how this might have happened.

    lastly, a word about the impact of korean immigrants to japan: the significant factor here isn’t the contribution of dna, it’s the contribution of culture and technology. that’s what’s significant here.

    ****

    there isn’t much evidence to support this idea that japan controlled a sliver of korea. could you tell me where i might look for information that supports the theory of minama?

  27. Aceface said

    Pawi:

    “yes, mongol and manchu share similarities with both languages but their grammars are not the same. ”

    Don’t know about Manchu but in case of Mongolian,the grammers are pretty same.

    “there is some thinking that korean immigrants gave japanese it’s grammar while it retained it’s own words.”

    That’s pretty difficult thing to do in practice.Think about how much Chinese terms had got into Korean when they “gave” civilization.And Japanese words when we “gave”modernity.If that to be occured there has to be more proto-Korean words with in proto-Japanese,something we can only imagine since our knowledge on these language are limited.and the problem is you won’t get any of those answers by digging the tomb.

    “there isn’t much evidence to support this idea that japan controlled a sliver of korea. could you tell me where i might look for information that supports the theory of minama?”

    I don’t think Nimana was CONTROLLED by Yamato,and the mainstream of Japanese academia thinks they were allied and there is a thesis that 任那日本府 was simply a name of the department of dealing with Japanese.
    Anyway,there is a joint study group between Japanese and Korean academics
    Foundation of Japan Korea Cultural Relation
    http://www.jkcf.or.jp/history/report3.html

    The question you were asking to Shakuhachi at Marmot hole.
    “could you give some examples from these comic books? could you give us the name of said comics? if you decide to answer, could you write their names in kanji?”

    This really is none of my business,but since you seemed to be interested.
    マンガ日本の歴史①秦漢帝国と稲作を始める倭人 石ノ森章太郎 is what I’ve found in my son’s bookshelf.
    And I think this isn’t the only one because what I’ve read when I was kid was different series of Manga about history of Japan and they were also mentioning about cultural contribution by Korean and Chinese and that’s almost as formal as mentioning about native american contribution to pilgrim father’s settlement in american history book.

  28. pawikirogi said

    ‘Don’t know about Manchu but in case of Mongolian,the grammers are pretty same.’ aceface

    you know, i’ve heard this from a poster named dda. i asked him to tell me if it was true that mongol conjugated it’s verbs according to subject. i asked him that because that’s what little i knew about mongol but that was more than enough for me to know that the grammars of mongol and say, japansese, were not identical to one another. still further, my understanding is that mongol does not have the emphatic marker -ga(jp)/-nun(kr). that too would make mongol different from japanese and korean. perhaps you can fill me in since dda chose not to support his contention by answering the above questions. lastly, if you are fluent in mongol and decide to answer my post, won’t you tell me how a mongol would say ‘i want you to be happy’?

    as for your comments regarding minama, that’s basically what i’ve heard too.

    lasty, i’d like to thank you for providing info re the manga.

  29. ampontan said

    “my understanding is that mongol does not have the emphatic marker -ga(jp)/-nun(kr).”

    I had thought that that the Japanese ha (wa) corresponded to the Korean nun, while the Japanese ga corresponded to the Korean ga/i. Or at least that’s how it seemed to me during my sporadic studies of Korean.

  30. bender said

    Pawi:

    Speaking of Mongoiian, I’m sure you have little knowledge of Japanese yourself. Like, if you look at Latin, where they has more cases than German, you can find the difference between wa/ga. Identical grammar? How come when I try to translate Korean into Japanese using translation software, I see lots of grammatical mistakes? How come it seems to be that when Koreans use Japanese, there seems to be distinct grammatical errors among them? There’s no language that has “identical grammar”. Heck, even Okinawan and the standard Tokyo language has different grammars. Or close yet, Kansai and Kanto dialects.

    As for the control of the southern end of the Korean penninsula by Japan, there are Yamato-style barrows there, which was found not to preceed those at Yamato, but was actually of a later period-I wonder what that suggests? I’ll try to find some source in English, but if you’re from Korea, look up for 全羅南道、日式古墳 or 前方後円墳 in your language.

  31. bender said

    Oops, “Latin, where it has more cases than German”…

    I wonder how these ridiculous typos slip in.

  32. pawikirogi said

    ‘I had thought that that the Japanese ha (wa) corresponded to the Korean nun, while the Japanese ga corresponded to the Korean ga/i. Or at least that’s how it seemed to me during my sporadic studies of Korean.’ ampotan

    SUBJECT MARKER

    watashi-WA (jp) neh-GA (kr) tangshin-EE (kr) when the proceeding word ends with a consonant

    EMPHATIC MARKER

    watashi-GA (jp) na-NUN (kr) tangshin-UN (kr) when the proceeding word ends with a consonant

    i have the utmost respect for aceface and do not wish to insult him in any way, but my understanding is mongol conjugates it’s verbs according to subject. that alone would make it very different than korean and japanese.

    ‘i’ll bet you don’t know much about japanese.’ bender

    i’ll bet i know more about japanese than you know about korean.
    and, are you saying that latin has an emphatic marker? if you are, how does that relate to the emphatic marker of korean and japanese? can you show me any other major language in ne asia that uses ‘ga/nun’? lastly, do you understand why i asked for a translation of ‘i want you to be happy.’? respectfully, i’d say you don’t.

    ps ‘tangshin’ is a nice way to say ‘you’ though i’ve noticed a decline in it’s use.

  33. ampontan said

    “SUBJECT MARKER
    watashi-WA (jp) neh-GA (kr) tangshin-EE (kr) when the proceeding word ends with a consonant
    EMPHATIC MARKER
    watashi-GA (jp) na-NUN (kr) tangshin-UN (kr) when the proceeding word ends with a consonant
    i’ll bet i know more about japanese than you know about korean”

    You were speaking of someone else, but I’m not certain of your Japanese ability.

    From the NHK textbook (in Japanese, which is how I started my Korean studies) Lesson 15:

    日本語では主語を示す助詞(主格助詞と呼びます)は、「が」だけしかありませんが、この言語には体言の音声的性質によってGA・Iという種類の形があります。

    In other words, the Japanese ga equals the Korean ga/i

    To continue, Lesson 18 has a chart of 助詞. The first entry goes like this:

    意味:は
    母音体言につく形:(NUN)
    (RIUL)体言、子音体言につく体言:(UN)

    In other words, the Japanese ha equals the Korean nun/un.

    The text is a collaboration between a Japanese university professor and a Korean university professor.

    Perhaps you ought to review your Japanese textbook, Pawikirogi.

  34. Aceface said

    OK,Pawi’s question about the language is pretty decent one.

    “still further, my understanding is that mongol does not have the emphatic marker -ga(jp)/-nun(kr). that too would make mongol different from japanese and korean. perhaps you can fill me in since dda chose not to support his contention by answering the above questions. lastly, if you are fluent in mongol and decide to answer my post, won’t you tell me how a mongol would say ‘i want you to be happy’? ”

    OK,I confess I’m not “fluent” in Mongolian(can’t say with English either),My wife and her son(who is now my son)are Mongolians from Ulaanbaatar.I’m learning little by little from them.

    “I Want you to be happy “in Mongolian

    “Bi(I) taniig(You) az jargaltai(Happy) baigaasai(to be) gej(and) husej baina.(want)”

    This seems to be proving your ideas on emphatic marker,but there are others who think Mongolian has emphatic marker(although my wife is do not agree with that).My poor Mongolian cannot make judge of that.There is this book written by a linguist,Ozawa Shigeo who was the chairman of the international Mongologist association some years ago had written a book called “Mongolian language and Japanese language”and reffering this issue.But it’s too complicate for me to understand.But it’s safe to say present day Korean is closer to present day Japanese than present day Mongolian,linguistically.

    One thing though,I know for a fact that Mongolian spoken in Mongolia and that spoken in Inner Mongolian Autonomous Region in China had changed drastically in the last 70 years due to the fact that there are many Russian term had thrown into the former and Mandarin term to the latter.So sometimes it is hard to make communication between the two groups of the same ethnicity.
    Now this happens only in 70 years.If Archaic Korean had influenced the Archaic Japanese in some ways,I’m sure there are more mutually understandable words with in the Japanese.No?

    It’s perhaps safe to think that two language had divided pretty much long ago some where in the continent and become what it is now by swallowing other small language groups both in Japanese archipelago and Korean peninsula.

    But then again,this is just a speculation.

  35. bender said

    Pawi:

    The Japanese “emphatic marker” is “ha(wa)”, not “ga”. “Ga” is used to show a subjective case. Ampontan is correct.

    BTW, if you look up “emphatic marker” in google, you’ll find lots of languages…Mandarin Chinese, Tibetan, even a Romance Language. So, are they all related as your so-called “Sprachbund”?

    Now if you know Japnanese, take a look at this:
    http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/主格
    Also:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_particles

    Classic Japanese lacked subjective “ga”, which I can confirm since I notice that, too. Just take a look at Japanese classics like “Heike-monogatari”. In classic Japanese, “ga” was possessive. This is noticeable in placenames like “Hjiri-ga-take”, “Shiomi-ga-oka”.

    Also interesting is that Japanese does not use subjective particle “ga” in denial, but Korean does. Can you confirm this? I think I heard a Korean make this mistake in Japanese before. If true, this is quite different. So much for you identical grammar theory.

  36. pawikirogi said

    ‘The text is a collaboration between a Japanese university professor and a Korean university professor.

    Perhaps you ought to review your Japanese textbook, Pawikirogi.’ ampotan

    perhaps we are getting too caught up in semantics but i’ll rephrase my main contention: japanese ‘ga’ = korean ‘nun’. japanese ‘wa’ = korean ‘ga’.

    ‘Ga’ as Emphasis

    “Ga” is used for emphasis, to distinguish a person or thing from all others. If a topic is marked with “wa,” the comment is the most important part of the sentence. On the other hand, if a subject is marked with “ga,” the subject is the most important part of the sentence. In English, these differences are sometimes expressed in tone of voice. Compare these sentences.

    Taro wa gakkou ni ikimashita.
    太郎は学校に行きました。 Taro went to school. (KR: taro-GA hakyo-e gaso)
    Taro ga gakkou ni ikimashita.
    太郎が学校に行きました。 Taro is the one
    who went to school. (KR: taro-NUN hakyo-e gaso)

    you can find the rest at about.com. interesting that wa/ga and ga/nun are used in ALMOST the same ways in both languages. still further, let me say this: -ga/-nun represent something that makes korean and japanese similar to one another and unlike any others in ne asia.

    aceface, thank you for providing the sentence in mongol. the sentence shows mongol grammar ain’t like korean or japanene. though i don’t know how you say ‘happy’ in your language, i’ll bet a japanese could get away saying the sentence like this:

    ‘happy’-te hoshi

    koreans would make the sentence in the very same way:

    ‘haeng-bokha-gi pareh.

    i stand by what i wrote: japanese and korean grammar are identical to one another though they may have different fingerprints.

    ‘BTW, if you look up “emphatic marker” in google, you’ll find lots of languages…Mandarin Chinese, Tibetan, even a Romance Language. So, are they all related as your so-called “Sprachbund”?’ bender

    chinese mandarin has an emphatic marker just like korean and japanese? do they use this so-called marker in the same way as the k and j? don’t bother answering; chinese mandarin has no equivalent to ‘ga/nun’.

  37. pawikirogi said

    ‘The Japanese “emphatic marker” is “ha(wa)”, not “ga”. “Ga” is used to show a subjective case. Ampontan is correct.’ bender

    is he?

    ‘“Ga” is used for emphasis, to distinguish a person or thing from all others. If a topic is marked with “wa,” the comment is the most important part of the sentence. On the other hand, if a subject is marked with “ga,” the subject is the most important part of the sentence. In English, these differences are sometimes expressed in tone of voice. Compare these sentences….’ about.com

    the artifcle at about.com gives a pretty detailed explanation of the two markers wa and ga.

  38. ampontan said

    “the artifcle at about.com gives a pretty detailed explanation of the two markers wa and ga.”

    Dude, you can admit you were misguided, it ain’t no crime.

    If it comes down to taking the word of about.com over a textbook written by Japanese and Korean language professors, I know which one I pick.

  39. pawikirogi said

    ‘Dude, you can admit you were misguided, it ain’t no crime.’

    i think that would apply to you, dude. misguided? don’t think so. all that i wrote is true.

  40. SNK_1408 said

    This is such an dumb question; Koreans were not Koreans today and Japanese were not Japaneses today.

    Koreans and Japanese is collective terms we used to describe the people that lived & still lives in both countries. Ofcourse there wasn’t countries called Korea or Japan back in 300~600AD.

    It doesn’t matter if kofun period is belongs to Koreanic or Japonic; it’s ancient matter that finished over 1500 years ago. So what if Kofun rulers were came from Korean peninsula or not or even ruled parts of Korean peninsula. What ever was it, this doesn’t change anything today.

    Korea and Japan is such a big territories are they? It’s lot easier to tide them together as one major group, just consider each different states that existed on Korea & Japan being different tribes that shared common ancestor.

  41. KoreanSentry said

    If you people have actually seen artifacts and archeological items then you guys will say, Kofun Japan was colonies of ancient Korean clans. Have you people ever seen Gaya-Silla clowns, jewelry, swords, armors, ceremonial items, and Baikje’s sword, armors, jewelry, bronzewares etc.. ?
    These objects discovered from Kofun sites at Japan are identical to these of ancient Koreans that dating back 1500 years ago. I would disagree if Japanese kofun culture was more advanced than Korean kofun, because it shows the logical flows of technology. Japan ever evolved from bronze to iron culture, in fact very few bronzewares were discovered in Japan compared to bronze culture of Korea.
    Iron? This too was imported by Japanese from Southern Korean peninsula. The only thing Japan was exporting to Korea was their silvers.
    Btw, modern Japanese genes are not closer to Ainu or Siberian than we thought, in fact Koreans are lot closer to Tungusic-Siberian-Ainu than modern Japanese. Modern Japanese are now more closer to SE Chinese than NE Asian genes.
    Japanese also show strong reassembles to malay and Polynesian stocks, and these stocks are not advanced as some of cultures of Asia.

  42. askkorean1 said

    The Human DNA reveals itself. Modern day Koreans and Japanese share 02b. O2b genes are Korean/ Manchurian. Koreans and Japanese both share 02b 85 percent. Japanese does not resemble chinese. Kansai are of Japan ( Kyushu, Nara, Kyoto, Osaka, Kobe, Kansai area) share Korean genes.

  43. Tony said

    Askkorean1, you got it somewhat backwards. Yes, Koreans and Japanese share the same genes, however those are not “Korean” genes. They are genes that represent the same common ancestor who happened to be in Korea thousands of years ago. If that ancestor were to come into the present time, he would feel as unrelated or related to current Koreans and he would current Japanese. Both cultures have changed since the original. Only the genes have stayed the same, but they are not Korean genes because Korea did not exist then.

  44. askkorean1 said

    Tony, 02b genes is derived from Korean Peninsula and Manchuria. How can history be backward??? Puyo People ( Korean Ancestor) made Ko-Chosun Kingdom, had wars and fought Chinese. Puyo People expanded into Manchuria and formed Korguryo Kingdom. Puyo People migrated into Korean peninsula formed Baekje and Shilla Kingdom then Korguryo and Baekje Puyo tribesmen migrated to Nara, Kyoto Kansai area in which we call Japan today. If you cannot except the truth. Then its your pesonal problem. Don’t try to Acid wash history. Historical Truth always reveals itself. Its historical fact. Every ethnic groups have racial and cultural origin. Korean racial origin derived from Puyo Tribe. Japanese Yayoi and Jomon tribesmen comes from Korean ( Puyo Tribes).

  45. Tony said

    Askkorean, are you reading what people are writing or just trolling? Yes, Koreans and Japanese share the same genes. Which part of “Yes, Koreans and Japanese share the same genes” don’t you understand?

  46. askkorean1 said

    If you cannot accept the factual truth. Then just say it. Don’t try to analyze what is truth. It only makes yourself very uneducated person. As long you understand that Koreans and Japanese share the same genes. If you look deeper you will realize Yayoi and Jomon tribal groups are actually Puyo Korean tribesmen that pushed out the Ainu or interracial mixed with Ainus and formed modern day Japanese.

  47. Tony said

    sigh…I am conversing with a wall.

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